## CKLN-FM Mind Control Series -- Part 26

# Ritual Abuse Panel

# Gail Fisher-Taylor
& Caryn Stardancer

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CKLN 88.1 FM Ryerson Polytechnical University Toronto, Ontario

Mind Control Series

Wayne Morris:

This is broadcast 46 of the radio series that has been going on for about one whole year on this show concerning government military mind control and cult ritual abuse. Today we are going to be focusing on the latter aspect of this - ritual abuse and we are going to be talking about a lot of different issues within that topic and I have with us in the studio Toronto psychotherapist, Gail Fisher-Taylor and we should have by phone, Caryn Stardancer, a California-based advocate for survivors and publisher of "Survivorship".

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

I am a psychotherapist in Toronto. I also do consultation as well as education in terms of workshops, and one of my areas is definitely focusing ritual abuse, sadistic abuse, cult abuse.

Caryn Stardancer:

I am a survivor myself, and when I was in recovery there really wasn't anything being said about ritual abuse, cult abuse or mind control that I knew about. There weren't any resources available, so when I finished my recovery, myself and another survivor began publication of a small newsletter that we were doing on my friend's kitchen table and sending it out. Now we have an international non-profit. We have members in every state of the USA, and all the provinces in Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand. Our membership is made up of survivors and professionals who treat them.

Wayne Morris:

I would like to just briefly review the ritual abuse aspects of the series of the past year as it ties into government mind control. We have heard from Dr. Stephen Kent, Professor of Sociology at the University of Alberta, who specializes in contraversial religious groups, and ritual abuse, alleged abuse in this context.

We have also heard from Lynne Moss-Sharman, a survivor and advocate who started The Stone Angels group for ritual abuse survivors from the Thunder Bay area and her testimony of the prevalence of ritual abuse in that area, more particularly within the Masonic Lodge context. We have also heard from Jeanette Westbrook, a survivor in the United States. Her father and his friends had allegedly ritually abused her as a child and teenager, and it's very interesting in that she did attemptl to bring her father to court. He died just before being extradited to face charges. Her father was responsible for all the nuclear power plant inspections in the United States, not to mention being a Mormon church deacon, boy scout leader, 33 degree Mason, and so forth.

We heard the testimony given to the U.S. government radiation hearings by Claudia Mullen, and the ritual aspects of her experimentation. We heard from quite a number of other people - other survivors of government mind control that has also had a ritual abuse aspect. There seem to be many levels of this kind of activity, and I would like to talk about that.

We have heard from government mind control survivors who have experienced ritual abuse in that context, for a particular purpose. There have also been many allegations of people being involved local cult activity. I would like to ask you both what your experiences or perceptions are in terms of the different levels of cult activity and its purpose.

Caryn Stardancer:

Without trying to go on too long (these things can sometimes turn into hours), my abuse started in the forties, WWII. So obviously some of the things I first saw were a mixture of people who were involved in military, and who were in power settings and were doing that kind of experimentation. There were also Masonic connections. In the time I was given "mentorship" I was told there was something called The Pantheistic Occult, and essentially what that meant was that there are all different kinds of systems under which mind control can be perpetrated (or belief systems, religious beliefs, political beliefs). Basically the idea is that you target a person - by where their vulnerabilities are - dependent upon their cultural or educational group, the profession in which they are involved, where their vulnerabilities are - by what they already believe.

There are different ways people are brought into the system. Some of them are churches - there was certainly a church involved in the early contact with my family. What the Pantheistic Occult basically meant was that it basically doesn't matter what the belief system is, it depends on the person's adaptability, the way they respond to issues of power, and you move your way up depending on your adaptability. You may never know that there is a group larger than the one you are involved in, or you may, depending on how you move through the system, and also how the people who are in contact with you move through the system.

Wayne Morris:

When you say it doesn't really matter in terms of the specific ideology, do you think the religious or belief systems involved here are a front for the abuse, or for other criminal activity? What part does that play in these groups?

Caryn Stardancer:

Definitely. For example, the people who were teaching me about the Pantheistic Occult were directly involved in what was called a Dionysian Sect. That was explained as having started in pre-Christian times - it had to do with the profession they were involved in - which was the Law. Essentially most of what they were doing was political blackmail. The use of the children had to do with having them adapted to sex - for example, having them photographed in a film with adults who were being blackmailed. It was then easy to manipulate them.

The people bought into it more or less. Some were very cynical about it, and said it was all about power, it didn't really matter. Other people really "believed". It's so individual how different people respond. For example, in the one church I went to some people were very much involved in satanism, and very much believed, but other people would just laugh about it privately and just say it's the system to get the minions, to terrorize them. In that sect, in all of the different groups I've been exposed to, and that's what I hear from survivors over the world, that it really depends on who you are, and who you are in contact with - how much people believe. The belief system is used essentially to indoctrinate, entrance, terrorize - and it's part of the mind control system in that all mind control is a conditioned response where feelings are put together with ideas.

Wayne Morris:

It seems like the common thread here, irregardless of how seriously the participants take their ideology, is the criminal activities. Perhaps Gail, you could talk about the commonality of the criminal activity within the accounts of ritual abuse survivors.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

There is a lot of criminal activity, and some people actually talk about ritual abuse being used as a smoke-screen for criminal activity. Certainly there are the child and adult pornography and prostitution rings; drug trafficking. There are often reports from survivors of cult connections with organized crime which is the Mafia. We are talking about really different kinds of groups as well. I have heard reports from survivors of what seem to be groups of people who get together and have maybe an informal local cult, and maybe deal in some level of pornography and prostitution. It seems quite local actually. And I have also, as Caryn Stardancer is reporting, heard many reports of much more organized activity where the cults have connections that go far beyond local activity. And those seem to be the cults that get into the organized criminal activity.

Wayne Morris:

We are going to be opening the phone lines at around 10 o'clock, so if any of our listeners have any questions they would like to put to the panelists, please get ready to do so.

I would like to get a sense, in terms of the local cults, and however those start up - how widespread, in your opinion, is this kind of activity happening across North America?

Caryn Stardancer:

I would say it is very widespread, considering we have members from all over the place, from cities to small towns, and also when I was growing up my exposure was from rural areas to cities. When you talk about the larger organization - often in a local group a small group may not know anything about a larger organization, and maybe only one person in that group - who basically is coming in and has a charismatic power - and that person may be networked beyond, but no one else in the group ever finds out that the person may be involved in a number of different groups, and is moving around. Things are very eclectic.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

A friend of mine, Christine Oksana, who wrote "Safe Passage to Healing" which is a guide basically for ritual abuse survivors, talks about ritual abuse as being interwoven in the fabric of society, basically world-wide. Something else she talks about is the idea that when people are abused, traumatic re-enactment is really ritual. There is a ritualization when people are re-enacting their trauma. What I mean by that is that when people are traumatized, they repeat something to do with their traumas, trying to resolve the trauma in some sort of way.

For instance if somebody has been sexually abused, they may have ritualized kinds of activities that they keep on doing, and don't understand why they are doing it, they are not connecting it to their trauma. What happens is that when people are re-enacting traumatic events - eg. if someone has been sexually abused, and they are perpetrating sexual abuse as an adult and they get together with other abusive people who have also been sexually abused and are re-enacting - there is a ritualization that occurs. We have everything from informal groups getting together - and as Caryn says, I agree, I think there is often networking involved and it's interesting how the networking can occur on those informal and formalized bases. I think the explanation of trauma underneath a lot of this activity really explains the great draw people have to do these terrible activities.

Caryn Stardancer:

Very much so, and it can come from either direction. It can be people who are re-enacting their trauma and someone may get interested in the whole mechanism of how having a belief system helps relieve the feeling that "I am doing something wrong". You may have one person who is very bright who starts to look into it and learn more, and then find out there are more people in different places doing it, and then network from that direction. Or you may have people who have always had their family or their connections in the system that come into contact with people who have been traumatized for example by prostitution, sex clubs, pornography, and in that way bring people into the group. That's why I mean it is very eclectic.

And then you have these lone psychopathic personalities who are behaving ritualistically, but to the victim, it doesn't really matter that much whether it's one person enacting ritualistic torture or whether it's a whole group of people. The response to it is pretty much the same.

Wayne Morris:

Within this ritual activity, there have been a lot of allegations of children being used for either sacrificial victims or further traumatization of the children for the purposes of mind control. How typically are children introduced into these cults?

Caryn Stardancer:

There are too many ways to say there is a typical way. Some are born into it, some just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's pretty universal however, and I think it also has a psychological basis in that anyone who has been abused, and now that we are building on centuries and centuries of abuse - it requires loss of innocence. There is a part of the psyche that responds to the idea of sacrifice of innocence because you have lost your own, and then there is the other parts that just have to do with how lucrative it is financially to involve children, and also how easy it is to condition and terrorize children, teach them anything you want to teach them. There are so many different reasons, and so many different scenarios. There isn't a simple answer.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

That's what we get a lot of reports of. Of course there are the daycare cases where children are abused in daycare settings, and there are many reports where children get involved in these cults through their families or neighbourhood cults, but as Caryn says, there are a number of different ways that people get involved - through babysitters, becoming involved with adults who are involved in the cults.

Wayne Morris:

What do you think is the force that has created these cult activities? Are they are in a sense 'home-grown' in terms of the local cults, or is there generally another kind of connection there that goes back to these organized religious groups, intelligence and military connections?

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

Again, I think we have a lot of different scenarios, and you have to remember that there is a long and deep history here. We have reports of satanic cults, and other kinds of cults, that go back centuries. There was certainly a big cult around Louis XIV's time, for instance, with not just reports, but forensic evidence that there were sacrifices of children, all kinds of satanic alters found. It's quite a well documented case. We have cults in history, we know cults exist and we keep getting reports of cults that are involved in the kind of criminal activity we are talking about, whether or not the belief system has to do with satanism or some other kind of belief system - if there is criminal activity, and terrorizing of children, and mind control - we are basically talking about ritual crime.

Caryn Stardancer:

Also when you have a belief system - a belief system can either be used to uplift or to subjugate - and that goes back to the beginning of time. For example since I was born in a generational system, there were people there who talked about the occult tradition, and they traced it back directly to pre-Christian Dionysians. They had a whole occult tradition where they interpreted history, and they had stories about the different things that happened to the movement of their group. And that was just one sect that I was exposed to.

At the same time I have talked to people who are in Native American and Aboriginal groups who have had their belief systems perverted by - it can even be by just one person who had been sexually abused who then began to pervert the rituals for control. There are just so many different ways - and essentially we just have to realize that a belief system can be used either to uplift or subjugate. That's why there are so many different permutations and why it is all the way through history.

Wayne Morris:

A Christian belief system can be reinforced in part of the cult members' lives as a jumping board for the satanic belief system in their cult activity? Do you see that duality?

Caryn Stardancer:

In Christian and satanic cults, absolutely because that is the cultural context in which good and evil is interpreted, so certainly you see Christian groups who use satanism, and you have satanic groups who use Christianity. You have Christian groups who simply the concept of Christianity - that's the way it is. It just depends on the group and the people and their interpretation, and their connections. It's a belief system, and a belief system can be used to subjugate or uplift. So certainly it is used to subjugate in a lot of different instances.

Wayne Morris:

My point more was whether a Christian belief system has been fostered within the satanic cults, so that the satanic rituals will have more - there seems to be a perversion of Christianity in satanism. And I wonder whether they foster the Christian belief systems in order to pervert them in their cult rituals. And I am talking about the same people here.

Caryn Stardancer:

Essentially that's what I meant by the cultural context, and a culture that has a lot of Christians is always going to have the other side. That's just the duality of Christianity and satanism.So you are always going to see those things, and yes, they definitely utilize the belief system that has to do with the symbols of satan and Christ as representing good and evil. One of the things that helps - when you say 'occult" meaning 'secret' - I believe the occult belief system goes hand-in-hand with the evolution of human rights. So as you develop human rights, you make laws against abuse. And when you make laws against using beliefs for abuse, then that abuse goes underground. That doesn't mean that there aren't countries where a religious political system allows abuse because they don't have human rights yet that have outlawed that activity.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

What you are saying basically Caryn, is that the abuse goes underground if there are laws against it and that it is overt if there aren't laws against it, if it is allowed to happen out in the open.

Caryn Stardancer:

Exactly, and I am sorry I have a dissociative disability and I have a difficult time with telephones so I have trouble tracking my thoughts since I am a survivor myself.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

I think your thoughts are going very clearly.

Wayne Morris:

Definitely. I would also like to get a feeling for your impressions of particularly the cult leaders - their social status - and how can they get away with operating these cults within the public society?

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

The cult leaders come from, again, a number of different contexts. But I think what is shocking, and what is difficult for people to believe, is when those cult leaders happen to also be leaders in other contexts. In other words, leaders in business, leaders in government, leaders in the military. And there certainly lots of reports where this is what is being reported.

Caryn Stardancer:

In my experience the leaders were always people of power, because the system was about the hierarchy of power.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

And in terms of the way they get away with it - the structures of power are such that if there are members of the cult who are both leaders in business, leaders in terms of let's say members of the police department, members of the criminal justice system - judges or lawyers - it becomes often - in these kinds of contexts - an old boys' network. You've got people protecting other people so if there is any kind of revelation that this kind of activity is going on, their members in the media are going to participate in the cover-up, or in the blasphemy, outrageousness of such allegations. If the police department is involved - and there are often reports of police being involved. In Saskatchewan, for instance, the Martensville case. It is very easy for police to conduct an investigation that will throw their whole case out of court for instance. If you have a lot of people in many different positions of power, and there is collusion among them, it is much more difficult especially when the public doesn't know about the principles of dissociation and the way that trauma works, the way that the human psyche works around trauma. It is very easy for the media, police and criminal justice system to play on the public's disbelief.

Caryn Stardancer:

Also all we have to do is look at something like Watergate or the current Monica Lewinsky case, and look at how difficult it is to get the facts. In the Monica Lewinsky case, if anything happened, it was sex between two adults - look how difficult it is to get any kind of information. When I was a child, you would have something that would be like a private birthday party for a powerful person in town. At that birthday party, drugs were ingested that the people didn't know about - some happened to be judges or police or certain lawyers - people who have power in that town. In the course of the evening they would be photographed having sex with little children, under the influence of drugs, but that didn't make any difference. If then people had those films, how far are you going to get in prosecuting if the people who bring the case have that kind of blackmail evidence available against them?

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

I think you bring up a really important point, Caryn. The way a lot of these organizations operate is through implication and intimidation. If these people are implicated in this criminal activity, they are drawn in, and they can be drawn in and blackmailed as you say, under the influence of drugs, and under other kinds of influences.

Wayne Morris:

This of course has profound implications for our society where we are supposed to be electing public officials who will represent the public, but really how healthy of a system can that be when these layers of blackmail are happening right up the hierarchy.

Caryn Stardancer:

It has always been this way. The stories I was told for example, by the Dionysian Sect - the oldest laws ever passed against ritual abuse were passed in Rome before Christ and they were made against the very Dionysians Sects that were still in operation in the forties and fifties, and which I assume are still in operation now. The reason the laws were made against them was because at that time there were citizens and then there were people who were not citizens - and it was known that in the rituals there were sexual orgies, flaying (skinning of people), flagellation, abuse and ritual rape of women and children. That isn't why there were laws made against the groups - the laws were made against the groups because of the practice of common commission of crime for the purpose of political blackmail.

Wayne Morris:

I would like to focus now on survivor issues, and what your experiences are in terms of resources available for survivors, and how that has been changing over the last ten years or so?

Caryn Stardancer:

Well, compared to when I was in recovery, there are a lot of resources and a lot of information. However when we first started making that recovery - it was a lot better climate. Now there is the backlash, and the backlash is having a very chilling effect on the availability of services in that even a therapist who treats a survivor is running risks at this point of suit under the guise of "alleged false memories". It is really difficult at this point, although there are still resources available. As I said, Survivorship has members all over the place, and we provide as much information as possible and there are still people willing to take the risk of providing treatment and giving information.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

I would like to say that Survivorship is an excellent resource - a lot of people I work with have found it, and I have found it to be a really excellent resource. I am wondering Caryn if you could provide information on how to contact you because Survivorship is one of the best sources of information available today.

Caryn Stardancer:

We have an address in San Francisco: 3181 Mission St. #139, San Francisco, California, 94110. We also have e-mail svship@bigfoot.com and we have a website www.ctsserver.com/~svship

Wayne Morris:

Can you describe what kind of issues you deal with, and what Survivorship typically deals with in an issue.

Caryn Stardancer:

Our focus is the use of belief systems and abuse together - members are everyone from those who have experienced ritualistic torture, political torture, religious torture, mind control, government mind control. Basically it's across the board because our focus is to help people get out of a traumatic conditioned response lifestyle. The way we address it - it's a non-profit organization - we have a real eclectic kind of approach - we talk about politics, we talk about recovery, personal experience. We allow people the ability to do their art and their writing. As well we have sections for teens, Gen-X, family members, partners, children (survivors and children of survivors). We take a broad approach - this type of abuse impacts every aspect of a person's humanity. You have to address every aspect of that person in order to have healing. And healing is what we are really interested in - freedom to experience free will, a quality of life they may never have known.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

I think fortunately the litigation in Canada has not gone so berserk as it has in the States. In terms of litigation Canada tends to be more conservative and there are fortunately more barriers to litigation. Although I do think it's on the increase and we tend to be often about 10 years behind the US. I would say the backlash has had a tremendous effect - an impact on therapists who are treating survivors and it certainly has had an impact on survivors who are recalling this kind of abuse. As they uncover what has happened to them, they have a certain kind of resistance that is protective, to wanting to believe this themselves - so when the environment is feeding back to them that this doesn't exist, or can't exist, and there is all the false memory propaganda, as I like to call it - in the media - I think it has quite a harmful impact on survivors.

On the other hand, one of the things that is happening with survivors is that when they are able to network, when they are able to get good information such as the information that is available in Survivorship - then there's strengthening that occurs against the backlash as well. And I know a number of very strong survivors speaking out against the false memory foundation.

Caryn Stardancer:

The wonderful thing about global communication at this point is now the door is open and it can't be shut. Throughout history when the door has been opened before, it has been pretty easy to shut. Essentially you would have a few people talking, and a few people could be easily silenced, and they had no way of knowing there were a few people in the next town, and a few people in another country talking about the same thing. They cannot silence us at this point. It is not possible.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

I think also there are some legal cases where ritual abuse is involved, and certainly in Canada there have been some prosecutions where ritual abuse has been a component of the abuse that has been prosecuted successfully. We had a big case in Prescott, Ontario where there have been signed confessions around ritual activity.

Caryn Stardancer:

I also think it is really fortunate that in Canada you had some press coverage of some notorious cases - I am thinking of the Mt. Cashel - the religious abuse in orphanages - and that was well publicized before the backlash so it isn't that difficult for people to go 'wait a minute, this really happened.' So when you have people coming along saying it doesn't happen - it isn't quite as effective.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

I think what has been really useful is when the cases are prosecuted on the pornography rings - on the criminal activity that people know happen - and when these kinds of child prostitution rings, child pornography rings - when they are broken and when there is investigatiion into them and successful prosecution - that really does help. I think there are more and more investigations and prosecutions into those kinds of specific concentrations of criminal activity.

Caryn Stardancer:

i think one of the things that is pretty instructive though is to see, for example in the United States I have seen newspapers practically side by side at times - news reports about cult activity, notoriously during the Branch Davidian disaster. There was another case with a small church in the Bay area - torture - and at the same time, in the same paper - there were false memory articles saying 'this didn't happen, this is all made up, this never happens.' These things would be side by side and people still wouldn't see it - and the thing that is interesting to me is that these are people reading the paper who supposedly didn't even have mind control - the denial is so pervasive the readers can almost have a split mind about it. Without having forced dissociative systems.

Wayne Morris:

People listening to this radio series have wondered about themselves, and looked at their own lives, wondering if there has been any kind of abuse that occurred during their own childhood. Are there any suggestions you can give people with those questions in their minds?

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

This is one of those tricky areas the false memory people pounce on if you talk about these things. There are a lot of indicators that somebody has had an abusive history. Some of the indicators are panic attacks - and within those panic attacks they are getting basically flashbacks which may not be recognized as such of violence or sex and violence, and people in black robes - basically what they are getting is fragments of memory that have been dissociated suddenly surfacing. Certainly dissociation indicates that there has been repeated trauma in somebody's life, so if someone finds they are spacing out a lot - in other words, there are minutes, maybe hours or maybe days of time they can't fully account for - with only vague recollections - this is an indication that there has been some sort of trauma in that person's life and it's probably a useful thing to get some therapeutic help from someone who knows about dissociation. Certainly there are other kinds of indicators - people who I have worked with have found with have found strange things in their houses or apartments that they can't account for. It may be something like blood for instance, or someone left a glove behind, and they don't know where these things came from. This doesn't mean that ritual abuse took place specifically - but if there are a number of things that the person can't account for, and is confused about, it's useful to start with help, I suggest, to try to understand what some of the explanations might be. There are many many indicators that abuse has occurred. It's a complex topic and it is part of the reason why it is so difficult to counter the false memory quick media bites because dissociation, traumatic memory, all of these things are quite a bit more complex, and can't really be understood with a quick five second or even five minute explanation.

Wayne Morris:

This is Mr. Grant on the line. Do you have a question or a comment for a panel.

Caller:

This is from a book I bought in 1989 and read right through in 1990. I will just read the blurb on the back, and I think you will get the picture. It's by Louis Zamoski. It's called, "Behind the Facade of the Masonic Temple: Masonry and financial capital, Masonry and the war machine, Masonry and profit - when you lay bare such links, you also expose yourself to the risk that your opponents will charge you with simplification, but what will the reader say when he hears that the basic law of the Masons central project is merely the law of profit, and also the establishment of a world economic government. Who said so? A Marxist, an anti-Masonic scribbler? Far from it. Those words came from Licio Gelli, friend and supporter and a member of the P-2 Lodge, writer Pierre Capri. Pierre Capri explains that the point concerns placing society under control of particular corporations which identify themselves with an economic power. At the same time, directly or indirectly, they are also identified with political powers." This was published by Progress Publishers in 1989 in Moscow. If you remember that was the year of the so-called collapse of Communism. That's all I have to say. I agree with all of this I have just read.

Wayne Morris:

Great. Thank you for your comments Mr. Grant. I think you have raised an important point here. We have been hearing allegations against the Masonic Lodge, generally high-ranking members. Their historical positions in society have been quite formidable. We are going to go to another caller now.

Caller:

It's more of a question. I have a close friend who is involved in the Emin Society. Is anyone knowledgeable of that?

Wayne Morris:

I'm not.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

What can you tell us about it?

Caller:

It's a group in London, England that is operating here in Toronto and the members donate $160 per month for the ability to go and hear dissertations on how the establishment is not really a source of truth, or the true establishment. I am really just calling to get an authoritative view on that if you are knowledgeable about it. Perhaps my question is misguided.

Wayne Morris:

We can't help. I don't know if Caryn has heard of that group - (Emin Society. (Caryn hadn't heard of it either.)

One other thing I wanted to touch on is what is the importance of spiritual healing to somebody who had undergone ritual abuse, and really have been spiritually abused.

Caryn Stardancer:

My feeling is that all abuse impacts spiritually. The vast majority of survivors that I have talked with and know, feel that spiritual healing is one of the most important parts; however there are some survivors who feel they really don't want to deal with this at all, having had this type of abuse. But statistically most people feel that it is one of the most important parts of their healing although it may be one of the later stages. It really depends on the person.

Gail Fisher-Taylor:

I would agree with that. It can be very frightening to deal with the spiritual abuse and I think that spirituality has to be interpreted in a very broad sense. A lot of survivors of ritual abuse have been abused in an organized religious context and are very afraid to get involved in that aspect of spirituality. Although there are many other ways they find spiritual healing possible - often outside of the context of organized religion, and are interpreting spirituality in a very broad and open sense.

Wayne Morris:

I believe Alex is on the line.

Alex:

I kind of wanted to go back to the caller who made the reference to Masonry. There is something I would like to clarify about that whole position. I think it is important to point out that Masonry as it is popularly understood here in North America and throughout most of Europe is not the Masonry that the previous gentleman was referring to. He was referring to a particular like Black Lodge type of Masonry called the P-2 in Italy and I understand that there is somewhat of a sinister Lodge in France. But the Masonry that is basically stretched throughout the rest of the world - Grand Lodge or Blue Lodge Masonry - has really nothing to do with mind control or cult activity or anything of that sort. So I think it is good to get that out there because a lot of people might get that confused and think that well maybe their Uncle or their Grandfather or even perhaps their Father was engaged in some sort of mind control practice which is complete and utter rubbish.

Wayne Morris:

The reference to the P-2 Lodge, Propaganda Due Lodge in Italy is an illegal branch of the Masonic Lodge.

Alex:

Hold on. This is the point I am trying to bring up though. Masonry as it is constituted in North America and throughout most of the world falls under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge which is in England in the U.K. Now the Lodges in France and the Lodges in Italy have basically been blackballed by the Grand Lodge in England because of its nefarious activities. They are formal and separate organizations. It might be perhaps back in the 1750's that at one time they were all together under one roof, but for about the past 200 hundred years they have been separate organizations. And Masonry, like for instance the Masonic Temple down there on Yonge Street, you know the one I mean - that sort of Masonry has nothing to do with the type of Masonry that gets involved in all these political industries.

Wayne Morris:

I am afraid I would have to disagree with you in the respect that we have heard allegations from across North America alleging that they have been abused in a ritual abuse context or sexually abused by high ranking Masons of the same Scottish Rite and the York Rite of the mainstream Masonry. Now that is not to say that all Masons are engaged in this type of activity - in fact I would think that the majority are not, and have no knowledge of it. But we have heard allegation after allegation of high ranking Masons in these organizations who are engaged in this type of activity.

Thank you very much for your comments caller. I am afraid we are going to have wrap it up. We are actually over time in our panel discussion. I would like to thank both Caryn Stardancer and Gail Fisher-Taylor very much for participating in our panel discussion.

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