## CKLN-FM Mind Control Series -- Part 18

# Blanche Chavoustie Interview

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Read her personal account on our site Blanche Chavoustie.

[Corrected by Blanche Chavoustie 6-98]

CKLN 88.1 FM - Ryerson Polytechnical University, Toronto Ontario

Good morning, and welcome to another International Connection. This is show number 30 in a series on mind control, and today we are going to hear an interview with Blanche Chavoustie, a survivor of various U.S. government mind control experiments. Blanche is the American coordinator for ACHES-MC, the Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors of mind control, who are currently engaged in a campaign to open a government investigation into the mind control experiments. In this interview, Blanche is alleging that she was experimented on at various sites, such as Cornell Medical Centre in New York, Hollywood Hospital in Vancouver, B.C., Syracuse University and the Parapsychology Lab at Princeton, all of which have been documented to be sites involved in the CIA MKULTRA mind control projects. Her accounts include her being experimented on with brain implants, synthetic telepathy, drugs, and hypnosis and she has been harassed repeatedly throughout her life. Here now is her interview:

Wayne Morris:

I would like to start off by asking you if you could tell us how you first came to suspect that mind control was being used on you?

Blanche Chavoustie:

It was a long, hard struggle to discover that actually. In 1989 I started experiencing harassment, almost daily, and stalking. It happened at least a few times a week, sometimes every day. Sometimes it would happen when my friends were with me, but usually it happened when I was by myself. Also, very weird phone messages would be left. I just didn't know what to make of it ... I wasn't clear where it was coming from. The only thing I knew was that whoever was doing it had to have a lot of money because they had resources to spend to have people following me.

In May of 1990, after very severe harassment, I was kidnapped and taken to Cornell Medical Centre in Westchester. There I was put into isolation and they tried to force me to take drugs which are written of as "chemical straitjackets", "drugs of punishment and control". There was really no reason for this. I was trying to explain to them that yes, I am upset, but I am being harassed and I have witnesses to it. I invite you to speak with them.

Wayne Morris:

How did they kidnap you?

Blanche Chavoustie:

A person who worked at the hospital whom I had never met before tricked me into his car, and once I was at the hospital, there was like no way I could get away. I realized what was going on, I tried to leave the building, and six people surrounded me, put me on the floor, and I was trapped.

Wayne Morris:

What was their purported reason for keeping you at the hospital?

Blanche Chavoustie:

It changed during the time I was there. They insisted that I was hearing voices, even though I said that I wasn't. I have the records now which show when the person did intake with me and asked, "do you hear voices?" I said "No, I don't hear voices." Some people insisted that I was suicidal, even though I said no, and every single entry makes reference to that in the the 120 pages of medical records. They must have asked me 30 times while I was there, and every single entry says that my response was "No". But one of the doctors wrote several times that "she has hidden suicidal ideation", so even though I said no it wasn't true, they insisted that it was.

I was taken there at night around 9pm, admitted at 10:15, and at 11:30 two doctors wrote certificates certifying me as "mentally ill". I was already incarcerated, in isolation, and they refused to give me a psychiatric workup. I asked them for a workup that would include projective testing because I knew if they would do that, they would see that what I was saying was true, that I was actually being harassed, that I was not delusional and they wouldn't give this testing to me.

Wayne Morris:

You had told them about the harassment ...

Blanche Chavoustie:

I told them about the harassment, I told them I had seen a therapist on the outside who knew about it, who thought it was a cult that was harassing me, they would not speak to her, they would not speak to witnesses, they did everything to suppress information that would have shown what the truth was. The only test they wanted to give me was a gynecological exam and I didn't let them. I don't know why they wanted to give it to me. It was ordered the first thing on my arrival there.

Wayne Morris:

So rather than seriously take your allegations into account they have simply labelled you as mentally ill ... did they actually administer drugs to you?

Blanche Chavoustie:

They were ordered for me, and I refused to take them. The first morning I was there at 7.30 or 8.00 am, whenever they give out meds, they wanted me to take them. I refused. I told them I don't need them, there is nothing wrong with me except that I am being harassed. They persisted every day in asking me to take them. I wrote out a letter to the Director of the Hospital asking for a hearing to determine whether my incarceration was valid. When the Unit Chief found out I had done this, he came to me and said he understood I had requested a hearing, that if there was any hearing, it would be the hospital's hearing to put me on medication and that he was going to ask for 60 days with forced medication. He suggested that I not go to court, that it wouldn't be therapeutic, that I just take the medication and forget about it. I couldn't do that. I couldn't just take the medication because I felt that I would never be okay if I did that. I would never get free, I would never be able to think. Even though it was a threat, if you don't win in court, we are going to drag you back here and inject you ... I still insisted that I wanted to have a hearing and I did go and the Judge did rule that they could not force medication on me. The papers they sent to the court and the doctor who attended said I was "suicidal" ... the judge said that I should be committed for 30 more days and he allowed me to move to another hospital. At the next hospital they evaluated me, and I was released almost immediately. I think I went there on a Friday, and on Monday the attorney for that hospital came to me and said I was free to leave.

Wayne Morris:

How long were you at Cornell?

Blanche Chavoustie:

I was at Cornell for 21 days, maybe 22.

Wayne Morris:

Was it at that time you had begun to suspect you were being used for ...

Blanche Chavoustie:

At that time I could no longer just let it ride and try to think, well what's going on? It just totally consumed me. From the moment I was knocked on the floor in that lobby, my mind began spinning about what is going on here? It was like a computer, just tracking down every strange thing that had ever happened in my life, and trying to figure what started this? I immediately connected being kidnapped to all the harassment I had gone through, but I still didn't know what was behind it, and even when I got out of the hospital, and when I got out of the second hospital, I still didn't know who was behind it. I just knew that it had to be somebody or some organization that had a lot of money because I was being followed by different vehicles - limousines, vans, people followed me on the bus - there was an enormous amount of money going into this.

Shortly after getting out of the hospital, I went to see a friend of mine, a woman named Nancy, who is a therapist and has a lot of experience. She has been a pscychologist for a long time, she's a psychoanalyst and I think I have known her about twenty years now. She knew me in many different roles. I worked for a while in the mental health centre that she runs, and I knew her socially, and I worked side by side with her when we were both very young therapists. I went to see her, and asked what do you suppose is going on here? And she helped me figure it out. Probably this was somehow connected to an experiment I participated in in Vancouver, B.C., in Canada in 1973 (it might have been 1974). At Hollywood Hospital where I went to participate in an LSD experiment.

Wayne Morris:

How did you get involved in that?

Blanche Chavoustie:

That came from a psychiatrist in New York - I was going for therapy in N.Y.C. with a psychologist, and when I quit therapy with him he asked me to go and speak to his supervisor. When I spoke with his supervisor, I got referred to this experiment in Vancouver. I was not opposed to it, but I didn't have any idea of the ramifications of it. My friend Nancy and I figured out that was probably connected to the hospitalization and all the things that had been happening preceding the hosopitalization.

Wayne Morris:

At the time were you aware of Hollywood Hospital's involvement in LSD and mind control ...

Blanche Chavoustie:

I still wasn't aware of Hollywood Hospital's involvement. A lot of pieces were missing but it just seemed that this was on the right track, you know? It felt right. The kidnapping was in May, then during the summer, a few months later, after talking to Nancy, I was watching a movie. In the beginning of the movie they had a prologue that included a clipping from the New York Times, the clipping said something like "...the CIA is looking for drugs that will create a perfect spy by creating amnesia for specific events". When I saw that it just rang a bell. I thought "if that would be true, if there is such a thing, that would explain so much". And the date of that clipping was August 1977 so of course I couldn't wait to get to the library, and when I did get to the library, that was the beginning of the discovery of the truth.

In the library I found that article and many other articles that were written around that time, and that was the time of Senate Subcommittee Investigation of the CIA mind control and it gave names of places and centres where the mind control had been going on, and I discovered, though there were only thirteen listed in that particular set of papers from the Times, I discovered that some of those were places where I had been. Syracuse University, and Penn State, and Cornell now. I think those were mentioned in the 1977 newspaper articles. Seeing that - and it also mentioned that there were 85 known centres for mind control research in the U.S.A. but it didn't mention those others in the article. I wrote down all of the places where I thought I had possibly been experimented on, and I went to the NY Times and I found a reporter who had been involved in writing those stories in the 70's and I said could you just tell me if these places were also involved. And he said yes, they were, but don't jump to any conclusions.

I was confident then that I was really on the right track. This event, this hospitalization was just one in a series of events relating to mind control. But that was really the first that I knew of it, after I saw that article in the newspaper.

Wayne Morris:

So you have been used in quite a number of locations and experiments. I wonder if we can talk about each of these ...

Blanche Chavoustie:

We can. We can talk about all of them and they go right back until I was two years old.

Wayne Morris:

Why don't we start chronologically. What happened when you were two years old?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Actually I just discovered this ... I always knew this ... I never forgot it ... it isn't something that was repressed, but I never fit this into the whole picture until about a month ago. When I was two years old, my father came in my playroom and he had what I thought was a mousetrap and he put it down on the floor and he put it under a cabinet that was in my room, and he told me "don't touch this, it will bite you" and I think he put chocolate in it as bait. I didn't touch it that day, but the next day when he was gone to work, I was trying to figure out how I could get the candy out of there without making it bite me. I touched it, and it snapped, and I went running to my mother with this trap on my hand. She wouldn't take it off. She just shut me in my playroom. I can't remember how I did get it off, and I spoke to her about it last week. And it's interesting, she can't remember either. She remembers that it happened, and she said that it wasn't a mouse trap, it was a rat trap. She doesn't know why she wouldn't take it off. She said I told your father that he shouldn't do that ...

That was the beginning. And that is part of the Greenbaum programming. Now this is very interesting. The Greenbaum programming was written about in the past few years, and I read what was written, but I didn't connect it to being part of my life when I read about it. Different pieces had to fall into place first. The reason I came to realize this thing about the mouse trap was because about a month ago, someone asked me if I had any unusual childhood diseases. They pushed me on it, and when someone pushes me on something like that and it doesn't make any logical sense, but they are interested, it gets me thinking. Then I realized, when I was seven years old I did have something unusual happen. I was sleeping one night and these three little guys came through my window, little men I thought they were. At the time I described them as being similar to the cut-outs in the back of our dining room chairs. We had straightback dining room chairs that had designs cut out of them. After these three little men came through the window, a lady talked to me. That was all very strange. That was on the weekend, and on Monday I had to go to the hospital because I had scarlet fever. When I was in the hospital the parish priest came up to the window and talked to me, and I was on a high floor, so this was not a possibility in reality. I was in the hospital for three weeks, and after I got out I asked my mother about the three little guys that I saw, and the lady, and what about the priest coming up to my window. She said well they were hallucinations because you had a temperature of 106. I accepted that and I never thought about it again until one month ago when somebody started pushing me to discover if I had any unusual circumstances surrounding childhood illnesses.

Once I accepted the possibly that was an experiment ... I knew when I was in the hospital at that time I was one of the first children in the country to be given penicillin. The nurse told me that I was lucky it was just becoming available ... it had been available before that, but it was just for the soldiers. I was born in 1938 so I say I was seven years old, so around 1945.

Wayne Morris:

What makes you think it was not possibly caused by the fever that you had?

Blanche Chavoustie:

I didn't have a fever when it started - when the three little guys came through my window and the lady talked to me - I didn't have a fever. I wasn't sick yet. That was just an ordinary day. I went to school and everything. Two more days passed and I was sick. That set me thinking, maybe this was an experiment, maybe I was part of an experiment. After that I read of Dr. Estabrooks, and I believe I was one of that project - he wanted parents to allow their children to be observed and he promised that they would not be interfered with, they would simply be observed, and the parents would be paid for this. I got to thinking maybe this is what happened to me, I was in this experiment, I was seven years old, maybe my father let me be observed. Then I remembered this Greenbaum thing which couldn't be denied in my case because I have that big painting that I showed you ... it has complete Greenbaum symbolism in it. (Subliminal art) You have a small copy of that. It has all the Greek letters, all of the symbols that would go with those Greek letters. That is definitely a subliminal piece representing Greenbaum programming and going back to the two year old incident of having a rat-trap on my hand that is a known procedure in the Greenbaum programming.

Wayne Morris:

That particular act of using a mouse trap?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Yes. Yes. That's been written about. You can get the Greenbaum lecture off the web at MCF. It states in there that this is one of the things they do.

Wayne Morris:

What do you think was the purpose of inflicting that kind of pain?

Blanche Chavoustie:

I've thought about it a lot. One thing is that it terminates your trust in your mother completely. To run to her in such pain, and to have her shut you in your room. There you are, you'd better become self reliant very fast.

Wayne Morris:

Were there any other events that happened in your childhood that would indicate that your parents were involved in experimentation?

Blanche Chavoustie:

The parents in the particular experiment in Estabrooks' writing were told that the only requirement of them was that they had at least three children. I know that shortly after my second sister was born, my father won the lottery, so I thought maybe that was the payment. I can never prove any of these things are related to Estabrooks' quest for subjects.

Wayne Morris:

Do you remember meeting or being involved in George Estabrooks experimentation?

Blanche Chavoustie:

No one ever told me it was Estabrooks experimentation. I have had to figure it out and I think I possibly met him at Syracuse. I think he might have been the person who interrogated me at Syracuse University. I am not sure.

Wayne Morris:

After the 7 year old experience, what happened after that?

Blanche Chavoustie:

I don't think anything ever happened after that until I was in college. I went to Oswego State Teachers College which is on the Great Lakes, up on Lake Ontario. People helped me discover this. I thought I was selected when I was a senior in College possibly because several times that year, and several times in my junior year, my picture appeared in the local newspaper. I thought maybe that's when it happened. I was talking to Jan Klimkowski at the BBC, and he said did you do anything earlier in your college years that would have called attention to you? In my freshman year of college, in my psychology class ("Frontiers of the Mind") which involved four sections of students, because every freshman had to take this, there was a teacher who taught all sections (400 students). She gave quizzes and midterms and a final exam. The first midterm or quiz, I scored higher than anybody in those four sections by many points, too many points for it to be a natural happening according to her. It was beyond statistical probability. She watched me, she thought I was cheating, and then on the next test I got about the same score. I didn't know this until after I graduated from college, and I met her. She told me this story and she said on the first test you scored 11 or 15 points higher, on the next test you scored 20 points higher ... and she said this was beyond what would be expected or possible. She wanted to know what I had done, if I had cheated. I told her I could tell what was important to her, and those were the things I studied.

What I think happened there is that all of the psychology departments in the U.S.A. had been invited by Donovan and whoever worked with him to scout out people when the OSS was set up, so they were all participating in one way or another, and they were probably glad to do it. At that time they were looking to find people who were highly intuitive. I don't know if that's what she got from this test. I had always been intuitive, I think now that probably was why I was selected, because of that happening in my freshman year.

In the second half of my freshman year I called attention to myself again by fighting with my psychology professor. It was the first week of school and they gave out the outline for the class and I could see from the outline that it wouldn't be possible to do all the assignments based on the number of kids in the class and the number of hours at the library that would be required. In those days they didn't have copying like they do now, so if there was one copy of a book on reserve in the library and sixty kids had to read it, you had to make 60 different hours available to read it. This professor gave us an impossible schedule and I went to the Dean and told the Dean this isn't going to work, and that Professor had to change the agenda. I did twice call attention to myself.

Wayne Morris:

Who do you think was behind the selection of people they apparently would be using in mind control experiments?

Blanche Chavoustie:

I think, from what I just told you, it's possible that I was volunteered when I was a child. Maybe my father thought it was his patriotic duty, I don't know. That would have meant that I was just "in the program" and then later I was selected for another aspect of it. Maybe I was selected to be testing penicillin. Maybe those little people that I saw coming through my window were actually a test of some kind of technology that could be later used to trick people and make people think that aliens are coming in.

Wayne Morris:

Some kind of technology to create the illusion of something?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Yes, and Estabrooks wrote in his dissertation (measures of intelligence by race) that the experimentation must continue, and it must be above criticism. So I was thinking that all these things fit together - that if they were developing some kind of characters that were 'holograms' like these little guys coming through my window who would be influencing us, they would be above criticism ... if they are aliens, they are just not available to be interacted with.

Wayne Morris:

Plus, I guess, just the general use of that to discredit your account, being something so unbelievable to most people.

Blanche Chavoustie:

Right, right. In the beginning, you see, it wasn't a discrediting because my mother just said "oh well you had a temperature" so that just sort of explained it and still left me to be a normal child. Do you know what I mean?

Wayne Morris:

Did you come across any direct evidence of connections between the people involved in George Estabrooks work and the psychology department at universities? George Estabrooks was operating in that area as well, at Colgate College I believe in Upper State New York.

Blanche Chavoustie:

He graduated from Harvard. He has a D.Ed or PhD in Education, not psychology and one of his heroes when he was at Harvard was Morton Prince who is the person who wrote the first significant book on multiple personality. That was the story of Ms. Beauchamp, 600 pages. She was his client. He was not the first person to write about multiple personality, but he was the first person who was thought to have been manipulating a multiple personality. That was very interesting to George Estabrooks, who more or less became the father of the intentionally created multiple personality and was very proud of that. That shows in his writing.

Wayne Morris:

He was also involved, according to Dr. Colin Ross who has a large number of George Estabrooks' documents, creating so-called Manchurian Candidates by using hypnosis Apparently he did brain implant experiments on children and you are saying also that he was involved in the more trauma based conditioning aspects of mind control as well.

Blanche Chavoustie:

He was. He believed in the use of different drugs, and he believed in implants. I don't know exactly what they were doing, but they started in the Harvard Centre of Morton Prince to do experiments which eventually were more widespread, but I think they were starting their research right there at that Harvard Centre, called the Morton Prince Centre, which I believe Estabrooks actually founded. They went out from there, and other Morton Prince Centres formed and I, as a young woman, worked in one of them for a few years. That's another reason that I think I am connected to the Estabrooks project. In 1961 Estabrooks wrote The Future of the Human Mind, and he said they no longer needed hypnosis, that they had developed a technique of implanting the brain and they had already done enough research to see what the potential was there. They could already make people blink and sniffle and jerk, that the future of this particular technique meant that anyone who was implanted would be totally controllable for the rest of their life. He said that the Manchurian Candidate type, sometimes something can go wrong, you can't be absolutely 100% sure because you are using just hypnosis. But if an implant is there, that person is a victim for life, totally controllable.

Wayne Morris:

Do you believe you were personally involved in the brain implant experimentation?

Blanche Chavoustie:

I am absolutely sure that I am and I went to the hospital in the fall of 1961 at Penn State. I had a pain on my hand, a small tumor on my hand. They told me I needed an operation on that. I believed them and I went in and while I was being operating on, I was given a total anaesthetic, and I heard one doctor saying this sexual message ... I don't think I can say it on the radio ... he kept repeating it, and I thought he was saying it to the other doctor. I thought "boy, this is really weird," even thought I was semi conscious, I heard it, and I thought it was weird, and I thought "I have to remember this". Then I did remember but I never could make any sense out of it, the next day, or the next year. Whenever I thought of it, I just remembered it as being very weird.

Now I see how it fits into the whole thing. That was the first programming I was receiving under a heavy anaesthetic. I was totally unconscious. Then in 1966 I went to the hospital in Buffalo, New York for another minor operation and there, when I woke up in the morning, I had a big blind spot in my right peripheral vision. It was very difficult for me to sit facing a light because it was so uncomfortable to have that blind spot looming in front of me. I went to the doctor and he said I had a brain tumour and he did xrays, put me in the hospital. I stayed two weeks in the hospital and the examinations and the things they did during that two weeks were horrendous, really horrendous. When I got out of the hospital and went to the doctor for a checkup he showed me in the xrays where the tumour was, but it made no sense that I went in for a minor operation and woke up with a brain tumour. Now I put that together, but when these things happened, I didn't make sense of them.

Wayne Morris:

When you initially went to the hospital, was it an operation around your head?

Blanche Chavoustie:

No, no. It was a D&C operation, the scraping of the uterus. It's a minor procedure.

Wayne Morris:

But they gave you a total anaesthetic at that time, and you believe they had done an implant at that time?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Oh yes, because how could you possibly wake up with a brain tumour from another operation? And the doctor showed me where it was on the xray, on the underside of my optic nerve. I didn't make the connection then, but later I would be able to see things, see things as if they were on a film, as if they were a dream, but not be sleeping. Now I understand that's what was happening ... this optic nerve implant was enabling me to do this, to be able to see these things.

Wayne Morris:

Do you remember what happened to you during that two week period?

Blanche Chavoustie:

The two weeks I was in the hospital? They did different operations and things to me, they gave me a spinal tap, and they did a pneumoencephalogram where they inject an ounce of air into your head. They did a vertebral arteriogram where you have a stiletto stuck through your neck because they need to keep you on your back but the stiletto goes into the front of your neck into the artery at the back of your neck ... four guys hold you down because they can't give you an anaesthetic. It was really barbaric. And the things that I just told you are only a few of the things that happened during those two weeks. It's really horrible, so horrible that after I got out of the hospital, and I went for my checkup at the doctor's, and the doctor told me he was in love with me ... and all of this totally inappropriate stuff. I was unable to go back and see him again, but here I think I have a brain tumour. He already told me I had a brain tumour. It was just totally insane, what was happening. I couldn't go back to him but I was so worried because I had a brain tumour that needed to be checked but I couldn't go back to him. And the tests were so horrendous, I couldn't bear going to somebody else and have to go through all that again. So I was sort of stuck. And I had this big blind spot in my vision and I guess I just prayed a lot.

It took about two years, and the blind spot went away, and I didn't worry anymore that I had a brain tumour.

Wayne Morris:

So this doctor was the same one who, when you were under anaesthetic, you heard these ...

Blanche Chavoustie:

No those doctors were at Penn State ... and this doctor, with the brain tumour, was in Buffalo.

Wayne Morris:

And you believe that at Penn State the doctor was actually speaking to you, or do you think it may have been a tape? Was it the exact same ...

Blanche Chavoustie:

In retrospect, I think probably they just left me in a room with a tape, it probably wasn't one doctor repeating the same message over and over again to the other doctor. It was probably a tape.

Wayne Morris:

Then after your experience in Buffalo, what happened?

Blanche Chavoustie:

It's pretty clear to me that each of these things that happened in an institution (a hospital, a school or a mind research centre) that's just a set-up for you, that's setting you up for things that are going to happen in your daily life as you go to work, as you socialize. It's just the underlying forces that are being put into you to make things happen in your day-to-day life.

The next major centre that I went to was Syracuse University and I participated knowingly in an experiment that I knew was designed to influence my mind. I don't remember exactly what the press release was on this particular experiment, and I did try to find out. I thought maybe I had seen it advertised in the school newspaper, and so I recently, within the past couple of years, called the Daily Orange, which is the Syracuse University newspaper and asked if I could come in and go through their archives and look for whatever advertisement I saw for this experiment. They don't allow people to do that. They said they would look, but they never called me back. I don't know for sure that it was in the Daily Orange, I don't remember for sure where I saw it. They offered to pay $35.00 if you came in for two sessions. This would have been 1968 and they said you would be taking some projective tests and you would be watching a movie. That seemed like it would be interesting.

So I went to the experiment at Syracuse, and the doctor introduced himself to me and I was surprised at his appearance. I thought it would be a student, but he clearly was a man in his early 60's and he had a young student with him taking notes. He said he wanted to inject me with something, but he didn't tell me what it was. I didn't know that I was going to be injected with anything and I agreed. I figured he wouldn't do anything to hurt me. Then he just sat and stared at me, and the student sat and stared at me ... must have been a minute or two ... and I was thinking, well are they just going to stare at me? This must be part of the experiment. And the next thing I know some considerable time has passed and I am sitting at a table by myself, writing, and I am thinking. This is what I am supposed to do, I am supposed to be writing. I am sort of disoriented, and I am trying to orient myself by telling myself what I am doing. That was more or less the end of it for that day.

Wayne Morris:

Do you believe they injected you with some kind of drug that had knocked you out?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Right. It also caused me not to even think about it. Just forget about it. I had to go back the next week and I met with the same doctor, and a different graduate student, and he looked at my arm where he had injected me and he said, "how did you get this bruise?" and I said, "why you did that ..." and he said, "that's impossible." Then he gave me another injection. One of those two times, he and another man interrogated me, I think it must have been the first time. It was a horrible thing, and because of the influence of the drug, I think I was conscious, but I couldn't think. They were accusing me of different things, but I couldn't explain myself, and I couldn't defend myself. If that is what they call truth serum, it's a joke, because nothing came from me that was the truth on that day. I couldn't even talk. It was hideous. But I forgot about it for a long time.

I never would have remembered these things, or started putting pieces together if I hadn't gone to the hospital at Cornell, if I hadn't been kidnapped.

Wayne Morris:

You went just the twice there for the experiment?

Blanche Chavoustie:

I went those two times for the paid part of the experiment, but I think many other things happened that year that were a result of that. I was a graduate student there in the School of Journalism that year, and I lived near the campus in a private apartment. One morning when I woke up, it felt so much like electricity was going through my body, that I examined my bed every possible way to see if there was any way it could have been touching something on a wall (a wall socket). There was no way. But I just had that feeling so strongly that I thought that was true. I think that was related. I think many times they have used electricity on me. I know they have.

Wayne Morris:

Going back to those two experiments you volunteered for, right after those what was your involvement with the people who had done the experiments? Did you approach them again?

Blanche Chavoustie:

No, I never talked to them again. I was quite familiar with those kinds of experiments, not necessarily the experiments where people are injected with stuff, but I was a graduate student at Penn State and I helped sometimes with different experiments that were being run there. It wasn't an unfamiliar thing to me. After doing the experiments at Syracuse, I think my life was radically changed in that I decided that I was moving to New York to get a job as a writer, and I did that. I went to New York City, went to an agent who sent me to a place where people worked on house organs, you know, it was a place that put out three or four different house organs for different companies. The interview there didn't work out, and so she spoke to me again and sent me to another big company, and I was hired on the spot for a job I wasn't really qualified for, which was being senior editor of a science project. I was hired, and I found an apartment in one week. I went to a place in Glenwood, N.Y. which is near Jonkers, saw an apartment, and took it. I can't remember who told me to go there. It turned out to be the building that David Berkowitz lived in. I moved out in 1972, and I think he moved into the building in 1973. I believe he was on the top floor, and I had been on the 4th floor. Many strange things happened in that building.

Wayne Morris:

Just to take a step back. Before you had the experiments done at Syracuse, what kinds of future plans did you have?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Before starting that term at Syracuse, I was recently divorced. My husband and I split up in 1966. We had been married since 1960, and I hoped that I would get married again, and teach school, or whatever. At the time I was working as a counsellor in the public school system. Some place in the back of my mind, I always wanted to be a writer, so it wasn't way off track for me to go to journalism school, but it wasn't anything that would have happened if I had stayed married and lived with my husband.

Moving to New York was very scary for me. I grew up in Syracuse, New York and then I attended Penn State, and then I lived in Buffalo. These are little tiny places compared to New York. I came to New York all alone, not knowing a single soul here, to a job that I wasn't really qualified for, to an apartment where I knew no one. It was a great adventure, to say the least.

Wayne Morris:

What I am trying to get at is do you feel you were influenced in some way to make that move?

Blanche Chavoustie:

I think I was influenced when I was at Syracuse in that experiment to make the decision to move to New York and to look for a job. I think the person at the placement agency sent me to a job that was specifically waiting for me. I think it was all arranged, that everything was set up. That I was moving into place. Then once I was in my job, in a totally controlled environment, and in an apartment in another controlled environment there, and not knowing any other people other than the people I was meeting through where I lived and worked, I was in a web, a complete web, and I couldn't get out unless someone on the outside would give me a helping hand and pull me out.

Two weeks after getting the job, without any consultation with me, an assistant was hired for me and they just brought her into my office one day and said, this is your assistant. She was definitely planted on me. Six months after that, another person was hired to work on the same job as mine, but to work on another section of the project, and she was definitely planted on me. I sent you pictures of her. She was definitely a multiple personality, and a very interesting woman, very bright, very interesting. These people were able to influence me in every way.

Certain people seemed to be involved there as part of a network designed to influence me, control me. This was more or less verified by one day, these women and myself, and one other woman whom I haven't mentioned (we were the editorial department) ... all three of them were fired on one day, and there I was, by myself. They just disappeared. I think they were there for the length of time they were to influence me, and to maybe even help me with the job. Because of my being there, serious things happened to other people, and I don't feel I can talk about what happened to other people.

In the apartment building, David Berkowitz wrote about it - that voices came through the walls, and he was so upset by this that he kicked holes in the walls in his apartment. He heard voices, he had strong influences on him in that building. Those same things were going on sometimes with my daughter, and she was drawing strange things, and she was very upset. I took the drawings that she did, the dreams that she had -- and I consulted a psychiatrist in New York. He wouldn't look at them. He just said, "well, if your daughter is upset, then you need to be in therapy." He wanted me to become a patient, but I went to someone else, and that second person told me basically the same thing.

One of the people at work influenced me to choose another therapist, and talk to him about these things. I gave it another try. This third person is the one who took me on a date to Cornell Medical Centre, and he was an enormous influence in my life. He is the person in the photograph I gave you ... he is sitting outside my apartment in 1991 or 92 after I got out of the hospital ... some 20 years later. He was hanging around harassing me, and once I met him, he was in my life. I couldn't shake him. I even sent you a copy of a brief piece from one of the letters he wrote me, saying that he feels he has to "hurt me". I mean, this is really sick and sadistic, and it seems so endless. It has been going on for my whole life.

Wayne Morris:

This person became your therapist for how long?

Blanche Chavoustie:

A little over a year, and after that I never got rid of him.

Blanche Chavoustie:

Many of the things that happened to me - when they happened seemed like coincidence. Often they involved seeing things, and now I know that I have this implant on the underside of my optic nerve which is why I could see things. Then they would come to pass. I would see something in my mind and then I would later see it in reality and I would think there must be some great significance to this, on my path, something I am supposed to do. I would try to explain it to myself that way.

Wayne Morris:

In the early seventies, you had some involvement with a dream laboratory. Can you talk about that?

Blanche Chavoustie:

When I first came to New York I was invited by somebody whom I can't remember - I think it was somebody who was in a pottery class with me - told me we could go over to the dream lab and they would show us the movie about their work, and they would be glad to have us over there. That was the first time I went, it must have been 1971. I remember we did see a movie but I can't remember what else happened there that day. Later, maybe 1973 or 74, the person asked me to go to that lab and take a student there, and to take my daughter also. (At the time I was the head of a guidance department in a public school system.) So I did. This second time, we were invited to participate in experiments in an informal way, stuff that was set up there. I tried a psychokinesis experiment that involved influencing the direct a pellet would roll as they went down a chute ... I was told I had scored the highest score that had ever been attained on that particular piece of equipment and I was invited to come back and participate in a formal experiment.

I returned, and the formal experiment involved being put in an isolation room with very thick walls, and I was put in a reclining chair. They placed electrodes over my body, and over my eyes they placed what might be described as pingpong balls cut in half. The room was dark and they turned a red light on so through the pingpong balls I could just see a red background. I had a headset on that played white sound in a form of waves, it sounded like the ocean. The task I was given was to make the waves increase in speed by relaxing to deeper and deeper levels. It was biofeedback. The person who came to the lab with me was put in another room, and a subliminal flash of a painting was shown to her. This is what I was told. I was supposed to try and see the painting they had shown her and I was to say out loud all the images that came into my mind. I started relaxing, and images began coming to my mind, and I would say them out loud. I think they were taping it. After the experiment was over, they showed me the painting. I had been right on target. I had scored a direct hit, I named most of the things that were in the painting, and that was pretty interesting and exciting to me.

Wayne Morris:

And you corroborated this with your friend who was shown the flash of this painting?

Blanche Chavoustie:

No, she didn't see it. How I knew I had scored a direct hit to the painting was that they brought the painting to me and it was a famous image. Seven men building a ship, one of them was holding a pipe, behind them was a certain design that looked like a 7. Superimposed on the painting, they had drawn two things - a little gremlin type figure, shape of a laboratory flask with a long neck and a round body; and a human ear. I was able to do the experiment there, and then afterwards some people who ran a centre in New York asked me to teach a course in your psychic ability? Next thing I knew, I was teaching a course on testing yourself for psychic ability. After that someone came from one of the major television networks and made a video of me teaching this course. Then the school where I was employed asked me to do some workshops there. So one thing always led to another.

Wayne Morris:

Looking back, what do you think actually happened there in this dream research lab experiment? Were they actually measuring your telepathic abilities?

Blanche Chavoustie:

No, I think it was the development of what people are calling synthetic telepathy now. That I was one of the people they were developing the technology on. I thought I could see things because I was telepathic, but actually it was probably electromagnetic fields.

Wayne Morris:

Some kind of signalling with electromagentic equipment ...

Blanche Chavoustie:

After I did the workshops, again I was successful, and many people in the audience were successful and I believe the same thing was going on there - that electromagnetic fields were being generated and received.

Wayne Morris:

I wonder if we could talk about what your experiences were at the hypnotherapy centre and the particular doctor who was involved in directing that?

Blanche Chavoustie:

That person is still directing it ... the Morton Prince Centre. I worked there as a freelance agent more or less, I saw clients privately, but I worked there several days a week. As far as anything strange happening there, I can't tell you that anything did but many strange things happened in my life during the time I was there. Relationships, going to places I wouldn't ordinarily have ... but I can't prove it. Milton Kline ran the Centre at the time and his work was reported by John Marks in "The Search for the Manchurian Candidate". He was quoted as saying he could create a "patsy" in three months and an assassin in six. He was also mentioned as a person who was an advisor to the CIA on the construction of Manchurian Candidates. I think this work has probably continued in these Morton Prince Centres which is maybe why they were set up.

Wayne Morris:

What was your involvement with Milton Kline?

Blanche Chavoustie:

He ran the Centre, and I worked there as a psychotherapist for a couple of years, and I was a student there for a year before that. While I worked there I was independent. I had a private office and I worked in their Centre 3 days a week. After that I took a full-time job in a private school. There I was very much influenced ... I was set up for that job. I was given the advertisement from the newspaper by someone. I left the ad on my desk for a few weeks, and finally applied. when I went for the job interview I realized that it wasn't a very good job for me and I called the Director and told her that I wished to drop out of the interview process. Someone from the school called and said "oh no, you can't drop out - you're the one the teachers really want, please etc." I think I was flattered by this and I stayed in the running, and I got the job. Everything in my life there was manipulated. I was the head of the middle school at this private school. Later, the same person who had called me and pleaded with me to take the job at this school, came to my office and said she wanted to have a few therapy sessions with me. I saw her, and during these sessions we talked, and she influenced me to be familiar and be inclined towards going to see a doctor who had been a psychiatrist who became a nutritionist. I went to see this doctor to see if she wanted to employ me because she hired people who did therapy and hypnosis to work with some of her clients.

When I got out of the hospital, this particular doctor was on my mind, and I went to her. About the second or third time, I realized the record she was keeping was wrong. She had written that she was treating me for parasites that I got in the Orient. This was very strange because I had never been to the Orient and I had never been tested for parasites, nor had she carried out tests. So I realized she was keeping a false record me. I didn't actually see her every time I went to the office, she was very busy, and I would see different people who helped in her office - different kinds of health practitioners. The next time I went to her office I read my record again and now there is a false psychological report in there - "this is a person who would never go for therapy because of her personality, a person with a dull mind" - things that just weren't too true. The third time I looked in my folder a few weeks later - now she has a false report from the hospital in a summary. It says, among other things, that I refused psychological testing while in the hospital. I begged them, every one of them, to please give me a psychiatric work-up and I did in fact take a psychological test called an MMPI. She now has a false record on me. While I was in her office this day I had to see several differet practitioners and I had over an hour wait between two of them. I started marking my file. I underlined and circled parts that were wrong and wrote "error" beside incorrect statements. Then I realized there were too many mistakes for this to be an accident and I decided to make a copy of the file. I took the file and hurried down the street with it. When I got to the corner, I asked the man at the stopligt if he know where there was a copy machine, and he pointed down the street at a copy store. I went in and copied the information ... and in comes the man I had just seen at the corner, he is following me. He stands there watching me. Two more people came in the store and they are standing there watching me. Meanwhile the store had been empty when I first came in there except for the clerk. I had been followed a lot, stalked, harassed, I knew that's what was happening. Instead of going directly back to the office I went home and put the copies in my house. When I came back to the doctors office one of the people in the office told me they had been waiting for me. Another person came in and took the folder in which I had written which parts weren't true and signed it. Then the office manager came to me and said, "The Doctor wants to see you." When I went into the doctor's office, she closed the door, and said "what did you steal?" One of the girls said I had stolen something from the office. I said I took my folder and I want you to know it's wrong. I wrote on it and you can see that I didn't steal it. She wanted to look in my purse, I didn't want her to, but I didn't feel I could say no. So she looked in my purse. She was satisfied then. There was nothing in it.

I have a case in court - it started in 1991. Recently the court wanted all the records of all the doctors I had ever been to practically since I was born. I was afraid she was going to turn in some false records on me. Much to my surprise, she said that she had no records of me. Isn't that interesting? Probably because I said in the deposition that this person was keeping false records of my treatment.

Wayne Morris:

In court were you able to show the copies false records?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Yes, I still have them. I still have her bills, cancelled cheques. She doesn't have records of me but I have records of seeing her. This doctor is just one of several incidents that have happened with doctors that have left me now afraid to go to the doctor. I haven't gone for regular mammograms and things like that since I got out of the hospital. Recently I had a bladder infection for a week and I was too afraid to go, so I just went into an emergency clinic in a hospital where they didn't know me, where I didn't have an appointment. Too many doctors have been involved.

Wayne Morris:

Did you have experiences with doctors that you were later able to identify were involved in the CIA mind control?

Blanche Chavoustie:

When I went to the library and started finding out the names of the different centes and the different people, I realized that many of the centres and people that were involved in my case were actually named in the Church Committee Hearings. Still we don't know absolutely positively that this is CIA mind control because these people were involved in that - they could have been doing this independently - there could have been somebody else behind it. It seems to me that some of them have been very surprised to discover the things that have happened in my life linking back further and further. In Nazi Germany everyone claimed they didn't know what was going on, even the people who lived around the camps. I think that's what is going on here with this mind control stuff. Nobody really has the whole pictures. Different pockets of people are doing different things and it just got out of hand.

I wrote a little piece called "Bill Ding", and it's about the domino effect. One person is set up to press on another, and another, and another - finally the whole line goes down but no one knows anything except who was behind them and who was in front of them and they would be very surprised to see the whole picture.

Wayne Morris:

It seems to be standard operating procedures for intelligence agencies where they compartmentalize the information so that no one person gets the big picture. Can you talk about Dr. Harold Wolff?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Dr. Wolff was mentioned in "The Search for the Manchurian Candidate". He was the head of Cornell and the Human Ecology Society at the same time. He wasn't the head of the hospital when I went there. He said in that book that it was important to understand the ways children were raised and the influences of the culture, then you can use these influences in mind control. He said that he would offer the unwitting use of Cornell patients for mind control patients.

Wayne Morris:

He has been well documented and the Human Ecology Society has been well documented as a funding front for the CIA mind control experimentation.

Blanche Chavoustie:

He was head of both of them at the time. Cornell was where I was taken, and I thought there was probably a big chance of people running the hospital sharing his philosophy.

Wayne Morris:

You feel you were involved in the mind control experimentation through the areas of drug experimentation, brain implants. Was hypnosis used with you?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Yes it was. Hypnosis was used probably beginning in Buffalo, in 1964. There was a psychologist who worked in the schools where I worked. I can remember he would just sort of look in my eyes and there was this very, very deep connection with him. Like someone you had known for your whole life, even though I hadn't known him very long. I remember walking along beside him one day, and my arm bumped into him and it was like electricity went through my whole body. That was such a strange thing to me that I never would have told anybody, except that I have been reading accounts of this in other places where other victims say this happens to them. I have no way of explaining it, but I know it happens to people. It was at that time I became connected to him in some way that he had unusual influence over me.

I think that was the beginning of the use of hypnosis on me, and there are many ways for hypnosis to take place that are not easily recognizable, it is disguised hypnosis often. But many times, it was induced hypnosis. When I was in college - 1956-58 - I was hypnotized by a teacher at Oswego State Teachers College. He also used electricity on me, but I didn't remember that at all until I had a deprogrammer come to help me.

Wayne Morris:

You had also become familiar with hypnosis through the work you were doing with your SuperSelf program. How did you incorporate hypnosis in there?

Blanche Chavoustie:

This is a very long story. I wanted to become a psychoanalyst, and I went into psychoanalytic training here in the New York area. I had taken about seven courses, I was a top student, and I had a lot of recognition for it. I was put into advanced classes and I have letters still from more than one of the professors saying how insightful and dedicated I was. At the end of taking seven courses, I would have matriculated and started working in their clinic but I had to take an oral exam from two people who hadn't taught me, who didn't know me. I went to the exam and they failed me. They wrote me a letter, which I still have, saying 'even though you know approximately what you should know at this level of your training, even though you have excellent recommendations, even though your work record is superior, even though your teachers think you are terrific - we are going to fail you because we think you are too immature.' So I failed the exam and that meant I couldn't see clients.

That was really hard on me. I had been thinking I was a good student. I was looking forward to a career as a psychoanalyst, it seemed to suit me, I was doing well, and, then to fail ... it was devastating in a way.

The same therapist who was hanging around my apartment after I got out of the hospital, who took me out on a date ... shortly after I took that exam I was walking down the street in New York and I ran into him. He was carrying a book he said was for me. I hadn't seen him in years. Whenever there is a coincidence in my life I am very wary now, because it could be a set up. We had a talk and I told him what was going on. He said you could start your practice, use my office, etc. and next thing you know I started seeing clients in his office on Saturdays. I had supervision and everything, and it was something else that had been set up. With his influence and the circumstances I went for training in hypnosis and that's how I got into that and started seeing people for hypnosis - usually they came to break habits like overweight, smoking, those were the most common reasons.

Wayne Morris:

Did you ever test yourself in terms of prone to hypnosis you are?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Yes. I think on a scale of 1-5 I score high, 4. Sometimes narcohypnosis has been used on me - you are injected with something and then you are hypnotized. I think anyone would be totally susceptible.

Wayne Morris:

Are you aware of other mind control technologies that were used on you, or that you suspect?

Blanche Chavoustie:

They used programming - the Greenbaum programming which involved conditioning. There are signals - hand and verbal signals, so that what you see triggers some kind of behavior that has nothing to do in reality with the signal. Tapping 3 times might put you into a trance and might push you to doing something that was a post-hypnotic suggestion. Certain things that are said ... remember the movie, "The Manchurian Candidate?" They say, 'why don't you go play some solitaire?' and the next thing that is said to him is a command and he does it, including jumping in the lake when that is accidentally said to him when he is in a bar one time.

Wayne Morris:

Are you cognizant of how this was used in terms of trigger words bringing out some kind of programming?

Blanche Chavoustie:

I don't know really. I know that people say something to you - it seems totally innocent - like the phrase "Chavoustie, Travesty" - that is one of the things that is said to me and it triggers a whole group of associations related to being kept in a network. In my whole life no one ever said that to me until I was about 48 years old and one day someone asked me to pronounce my name and I said "Chavoustie." And they said, "Oh, Chavoustie, Travesty. Chavoustie rhymes with Travesty." And I thought that's a weird thing to say to me but the next week someone else said the same thing, and the next week someone else said it. Eventually that became something that created anxiety in me, not because of what was said, but if I was in Sydney Australia and someone said that to me, I would know that person was in on it. It's like I am connected to a whole network. It's such an unusual thing to say. Another thing that was said to me, in one day seven different people came to me and said "do you know what time it is?" That was strange, I noted it. The next day the same thing happened. So when that happens again, it reactivates that feeling of being in a network of people who are doing strange things. I recently was talking to a mind control experimentee - 20 different people in one day said to her "do you know what time it is?" You are reminded - it is like tapping into that feeling of being a victim or being trapped.

Wayne Morris:

But they are using very common things that would not be unusual to someone else. I am getting the feeling these are just a few examples of what has been used on you.

Blanche Chavoustie:

They are so clever. If you try to explain to somebody who doesn't understand what is going on, you sound like you are crazy. Not harassed. It is this devious planning that sets you up to look crazy. Worse than before you tried to explain yourself.

Wayne Morris:

You do have a legal case against the Cornell Medical Centre at New York Hospital.

Blanche Chavoustie:

It has been six years in the Supreme Court, and it is now in appeal. I am afraid of doctors and they want me to go to their psychologist or psychiatrist for an examination, and I want to be excused from that, or go to someone appointed by the court or something. The judge dismissed the case when I asked for that. He didn't have a hearing on it or anything - so it went to appeal.

Wayne Morris:

Is the case against the Cornell Medical Centre for wrongly detaining you at the hospital?

Blanche Chavoustie:

There are 13 allegations. It's for violations of civil rights and malpractice. I had a time finding someone to take the case. Several people who said they would take it and did take it (one person kept it for 16 months before he gave it back it to me). As soon as I opened the case, six months later the Hospital opened a case against me. I have been struggling with that. Their case against me has been dismissed twice and it has been off the calendar for over a year, and they were trying to open it again last summer. Now they say they are not going to. It has been six years they have been - it seems like - torturing me with it. I think if they had a case they would have won it by now. They have the best lawyers and resources available. That case has been in and out of court for all these years, and my case has had a lot of problems because there have been delays on the part of judges in making decisions. It seems so slow.

Wayne Morris:

In terms of their case against you, what was the nature of the allegations?

Blanche Chavoustie:

They wanted to sue me for fees, believe it or not. They had never billed me. They just opened a lawsuit against me. They never had any grounds. I didn't sign any papers. I told them from the very beginning that I had no means of paying them and I didn't have insurance. I didn't have the kind of money to pay for hospital bills like that and I didn't have a need to be there. One of the things that happened - the lawyer I hired to defend me in that case created a false affidavit which if he had been able to present it in court, it would have been evidence they could have used in this other case I have against them. The false affidavit he created would not only have lost that case for me, but it would have been evidence that possibly would have lost my case against them.

Three weeks before he and I were to go to court, I saw the papers he was planning to present and I told him I did not want him to represent me any further. He refused to stop representing me. It was unbelievable. I told him that, and I wrote him a registered letter, but he insisted on going to court. I was bewildered as to what I should do, but I went to court on the same day. When my case was called, the lawyer for the hospital went up before the judge and he went up before the judge, and I went up before the judge. I handed the judge the paper I had sent to him and I said 'your honour ... this is what is going on here ... I don't want this man representing me'. The judge looked at what I had written and he was very harsh with him, and he said "these are very serious allegations she is making ... you do what she says ... you withdraw from the case immediately." This was the guy I had hired to help me.

The affidavit was only false in the way it was put together. There was no actual wording that was false, but it said things like "I left the hospital at the first opportunity" - I did leave the hospital at the first opportunity, but the day I should have been allowed to leave the hospital was the first day I was there when their own psychiatrist wrote in my records, "this woman is not psychotic, she's not dangerous" - at that point, that should have been the first opportunity but that wasn't made into an opportunity.

When I took a psychological test that showed that there was nothing psychologically wrong with me, that should have been an "opportunity to leave" but that wasn't presented to me as an opportunity. The first "opporunity" I had to leave was on the 22nd or 23rd day when the court order came through and said I was being transferred. So, to put in the affidavit that I was allowed to leave the hospital at the first opportunity was grossly misleading. By omission, or by implication, the affidavit was false.

So the judge told him to withdraw from the case, to go immediately across the hall and do it before he left the building. And out in the hall, the lawyer told me he was not withdrawing from my case that day, he would withdraw on the 15th when the case came to summary judgment or whatever. The judge didn't make it an order, he just told him to do it. I was bewildered. If that false affidavit had become valid, I would have lost everything.

So I went to another lawyer and asked him what to do. He didn't know what to do, he had never heard of such a thing. I wound up going to the disciplinary committee of the supreme court and explaining in writing what happened, and waiting for their reply and they said he didn't do anything wrong, believe it or not. So then I wrote another letter to the disciplinary committee thinking I must not have explained myself. The second time it came back that he didn't do anything wrong. After the judge told him to withdraw, and he didn't withdraw, I waited one day because I had to think about it, and I didn't know what to do. That was on a Wednesday that it happened. So on Thursday I didn't do anything, but on Friday I went back down to the court - I know you are not supposed to see the judge unless the other side is there but I had to ask him if there was anything else I could do. When I went there, he wasn't there. He was in the hospital believe it or not. So I couldn't ask him anything. And I had to wait several weeks before he came back to the courtroom, maybe even several months, and when he came back he had a totally different attitude toward me. He told me that if he told the lawyer that he had to withdraw from the case, that it was just a suggestion, and the lawyer didn't have to do it. There I was. It's been a real battle. I am exhausted by it.

Wayne Morris:

What is the current status? What is your next move?

Blanche Chavoustie:

We filed an appeal and within the next nine months it will come up again and the case will come to court. I have two good lawyers.

Wayne Morris:

I would like to ask you a question - when you felt like you were being influenced to do something, what you were feeling at the time? How did it feel to be controlled?

Blanche Chavoustie:

It feels different ways. It depends on what the situation is like. Lately sometimes a foreign idea will cross my mind that is unlike anything I have ever thought, or been, or done, or stood for in life. Like "look at the person over there - he looks like a slob" or "he looks like a stupid idiot". I never thought that way and I never said things like that. When these thoughts come on my mind, I feel like they are being projected there. I don't feel they belong to me. It is so foreign. Another example of this is one day a long time ago, when I was single, I had a date with a person and during that time of four or five hours, I found myself swearing, cursing, using foul language - and I never have done that in my whole life - I have never talked like that. It was surprising to me that I would say those things. Each time that you do something that is not part of you, but is being projected onto you, you are likely to have a different experience of it. Usually for me, no one is more surprised about what is happening than I am, and it's like you lose a sense of intimacy with yourself. You can't tell who you are, what you are likely to do when you go out. Kay Bashier's book talks about this. She was getting messages like, "kill your children" - she is very smart, and introspective, and she was able to figure out why this was happening. Her book will be very helpful to everyone who is wondering if they might be a victim, or anyone who knows someone who is a victim and wants to understand better what is going on.

Wayne Morris:

Blanche, you are the U.S.A. contact for the Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors - Mind Control (ACHES-MC). What is the work you do with ACHES-MC and what are your goals?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Well, we have recently, as you know, completed a video which is meant to inform people in the general public - it was a message to the President on Memorial Day asking him to help us. We are trying to get this network torn down that has been doing this. We would like to have a Hearing. We would like him to know, Mr. President, what exactly people who are mind control survivors are saying. And we want him to have an investigation of what they are saying, find out what exactly is going on, and what can be done to stop it. We hope Senator John Glenn's bill will pass - a bill banning experimentation on humans. We advocate for victims and we help them network with each other. We try to bring this mind control situation to the attention of authorities who can help us take it down.

Wayne Morris:

Approximately how many survivors have you been in touch with and in what geographical locations?

Blanche Chavoustie:

I think there are a lot of survivors from around the Great Lakes, all of the Great Lakes seem to have a higher percentage than the other states. They are actually in every state in the U.S.A. and all over Canada too, but there is a heavy concentration around the Great Lakes. And Lynne Moss-Sharman, who was on your program today, and I were both victims in the town of Oswego. That was how we got to know each other actually, at a conference in Dallas a couple of years ago. It's a horrible thing to be in the situation she was in as a little girl, but it was so wonderful to meet her and to have my own experience validated, and I think it as for her too - to meet somebody - it was like you were both in the same concentration camp - you didn't know each other when you were there - but you are able to validate the experiences you have had, because you have been in the same rooms, you've been with maybe some of the same people.

Wayne Morris:

And you both have been in contact with a lot of survivors who have been involved with mind control experimentation ...

Blanche Chavoustie:

Several hundred people who have participated in the data bank, and we have been in contact with thousands of people who have either sent us e-mails or called us or in some way communicated that they think they are victims. We don't think that every single person who talks to us necessarily is a victim, but we think that every person who thinks they are a victim should have an opportunity to tell their story. Let it be investigated.

Wayne Morris:

What is your sense of how many people, adults and children, who were involved in these experiments? This is going back now almost 50 years.

Blanche Chavoustie:

I can't say. It is enormous though, it is enormous. I wouldn't want to speculate on a number.

Wayne Morris:

What would you say are the main concerns of mind control survivors now?

Blanche Chavoustie:

Individuals who are mind control survivors usually are very stressed financially, most of them are on disability, if indeed they get that, some of them don't even have that. Most of them have serious health concerns. We need to have help that will allow people to get a true evaluation of their situation, and then treatment for it, that will include help with their relationships within their families. In general the group of victims needs to be heard. The public needs to know that it is going on because they are all at risk, and the only way to prevent becoming a victim, if there is any way at all, is to be at least very aware of what is going on.

Wayne Morris:

What would you like to see as an outcome of Presidential Hearings, or a Canadian Commission of Inquiry into the mind control experiments, particularly on children?

Blanche Chavoustie:

I would like to see the public begin to become aware that this is going on and to realize that they may very well be victims. I would like compensation in some cases - people who have lost so much - their lives have been devastated by this. I would like to see it stopped ...

Wayne Morris:

I would like to thank you, Blanche, for joining us as part of this radio series and wish you the best of luck in your legal case and yourself personally.

We have been listening to an interview with Blanche Chavoustie, a survivor of U.S. government mind control. This has been show #31 in the series on mind control. More information about ACHES-MC and their campaign and video can be found at their website http://www.aches-mc.org Tapes and transcripts of this radio series are now available at the office of CKLN at the price of $8 per tape or $3 per transcript of each show. You can call the station to get a catalogue of tapes available at 416-595-1477 during office hours. I would also like to thank everyone who pledged their generous support during our CKLN funding drive two weeks ago.

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