Jeanette Westbrook's '99 Conference Presentation

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This transcript is from a presentation by Jeanette Westbrook at The Second Annual Ritual Abuse, Secretive Organizations and Mind Control Conference, August 14 - 15, 1999 at the DoubleTree Hotel in Windsor Locks, CT. Some of the topics discussed may be triggering. The conference is educational and not intended as therapy or treatment. All accusations are alleged. Our providing the information below does not necessarily constitute our endorsement of it. Click here to return to our home page: http://members.aol.com/smartnews/index2.html

Neil Brick: Jeannette Westbrook will be speaking now. Some of the topics discussed may be triggering. The conference is educational and not intended as therapy or treatment. Please remember this presentation is being recorded. Anything said will be recorded. Thank you for coming to Jeannette's presentation.

Jeannette Westbrook, MSW, CSW, works with victims of ritual crime and mind control. She is a survivor of ritual-based mind control which she believes involved Mormons, Masons and high-ranking local officials. She has pursued criminal prosecution of some of her perpetrators. She has served on the Kentucky Attorney General's Task Force on Child Sexual Abuse. She will speak about "Getting Justice in an Unjust System." Thank you very much.

Jeannette Westbrook: Thank you, Neil, and welcome to the S.M.A.R.T. conference. I'm Jeannette Westbrook and I'm going to talk to you about a variety of things. I was asked to speak at the last minute, so I was trying to put together what I thought I'm going to talk about today. I think this is one of the things that needs to be talked about because there are so few . . . it's one of those topics that's talked about very infrequently primarily because there are very few of us who have been able to do anything in the criminal justice system. To get any semblance of justice when I am ...I definitely would like to tell you folks: there is no justice; it is a crapshoot.

The number one thing that you need to realize when you are pursuing a case is that you are a victim/witness for the state. A lot of prosecutors are concerned about a winnable case, a notch on the belt. Does anybody wonder why he or she doesn't like to pursue these types of cases? Because it's very hard to get a conviction. It's even very hard to bring charges. But I found out how it was done and I found out how it was possible because a law enforcement officer and another survivor way across the country let me know. I was able to get somewhere with it and I'm here today to pass that information on. Because if I don't do it, I assure you no one in the criminal justice system is going to tell you how to do these types of cases.

I do tend to throw a few jokes in here because it gets kind of serious and I try to punctuate some of what happens in here with some jokes. I'm a little burned out and cynical at this point. I'll just give you a little background on myself. I'm an MSFW, a clinical social worker. I was working with women in a substance abuse treatment program, both in-patient, out-patient, where we found a lot of, guess what? Multiples! Yes, tons and tons of them. Due to managemental health care, they laid off forty-two of us. Less and less service is going to folks like myself and folks in this room. I tell you, things are rough out there--to the extent that I had my supervisor come to me with some mandates from on up the chain. Because I was working with the survivors, they wanted me to put in writing and make sure I wasn't doing "empty-chair" work, guided imagery, hypnosis, and God forbid, don't talk about abuse. I tell you, folks, I'm not going to work under those types of mandates and conditions. I'm not going to do it. So I started a little practice in Louisville; if anybody needs a resource for Kentucky, I am one of those folks.

Let's get back to the criminal justice crapshoot. (visual) It's a roll of the dice, and.... Law enforcement and prosecutors and such are interested in this (visual) and in this order (visual). But I assure you, this last one here, why? They don't give a damn. If it was done in the name of God, Satan, and little green men from Mars, they want to know who did it? What did they do? Their concerns are time, place, dates and location. You've got to be specific and you've got to know this. That's hard, too. It's very, very difficult to know all of these things. The reason I'm telling you this is: if you don't have this in, you go in there, you get shot down, you get re-victimized...over, and over, and over again. Before you do any of this, one of the things that you need to do is investigate the cop that's going to investigate your case. Find out what judge it's going to go before? There's never been a dichotomy as true as 'good-cop/bad-cop.' I've worked with plenty of cops--nice cops, cult cops--love them. I love them to death and would lay my life down for them, as they would me. But you have to know who's playing what side of the fence.

Collect collaborative evidence. Some of the things include other relatives. That's a really hard thing--to ask your siblings (if they would even tell you) or other family members (if they would even tell you.) "This happened to me; did it happen to you?" And you want to see if that happened because that's collaborative evidence that can go into building your case. I'll show in my own case how that came about, what I mean by that. Ask those childhood friends. But you know what? When I started asking around, boy, did I get some collaborative evidence. That goes into building a case. Teachers--get those old school records, they're very, very important, and you know what? You're going to have to do most of this work, because I've got to tell you, there isn't a cop anywhere who's got enough time to do all of this on every single case. It isn't possible. It's really not possible and I know that as a social worker. You've got eighty or a hundred cases going at the same time--juggling things. It depends on what unit you're working in and where you're working. So get those school records. Coaches can be very important (if they're not the perp.) The blind ad in the newspaper--in the Father Porter case, that was utilized. Frank Fitzpatrick used the blind ad to locate other victims. When it comes to going through the criminal justice crapshoot, there is victory in numbers. If you can get enough victims of the same perpetrator together it goes a long way towards building a case. (Question: What's a blind ad?) A blind ad is when you put a publication in a local newspaper (I think it's better to use like the alternative newspapers in town, because it seems like most of us read those a lot more than the regular paper--you know, the mind-control paper--the one that wants us to believe everything and it isn't happening today!) Go to the alternative paper and you might place an ad in there to a post-office box only--one that's untraceable if you can get it. Or to somebody, maybe an attorney's post-office box. You might say something like "Jane Doe, alleged victim. Were you perpetrated X Y& Z youth organization from 1965-1975?" Or you might say "Were you a member of Boy Scout Troup such-and-such? Contact me." Then you've got them on the phone and you can start asking some of those questions. You don't even have to reveal in this ad why you're trying to get this information. Just to try to get people to talk to you first, because if you've got people calling you with the time and place, then you've got somewhere to go with that. And it's even better when you're placing a blind ad to have somebody doing that screening and not you, the victim. So it doesn't look like you're contaminating the case, because God knows, we all talk to each other! You know that, right? And we've all read The Courage to Heal, and it's caused us to have like false memories and all that bullshit. You know that, right? Believe me, those types of questions are going to be asked. You want to be stupid, you 'don't know nothing.' All you know is what happened to you and who, what, when, where. Just kind of leave out the why. And if people ask you if you have some kind of 'dsm2345' label, it's none of their business. Let their attorneys try to get that information--don't give it up. Make them fight for it, because these psychiatric diagnoses are used against the victim in the criminal justice system. So you 'don't know nothing!' You are 'Jane Doe in a pinafore.' You're not like me, burned out and cynical, you know. Look at them in the face. You want to be 'innocent.' But the collaborative work that you've got to do with law enforcement is to find that cop that's going to be on your side, and a good cop, who'll work these kinds of cases, is going to use your resources. And that means resources to build this kind of collaborative evidence. That's what a good cop's going to do. A good cop is not going to have the attitude of "Well, I'm in charge..." Guess what? He definitely is in charge of the case, but he doesn't have enough time to get all this, and all this is absolutely necessary.

OK. Photographs, letters from the perp--I've got postcards and stuff the man sent me from all over the world...you know...triggering stuff. Here's a nice little Christmas card. You can look at these closer up here. They're nice. Real cute. It has a picture of Santa Claus leaning over these two kids, holding up a book "Good Boys and Girls" and inside it says "May the wonder and magic of Christmas fill your heart with joy. Love, Dad. Stockholm, Sweden." Stockholm...victimization. That was 1980. Here's another one: Santa Claus in his long johns (his underwear), holding a whip, OK. December the 25th. It says, "When the holiday hustle and bustle has passed." and this is the card that was sent to me after I received a phone call "Go to the airport. Get on a plane. Go to New York City." Which I did. "Blah, blah, blah, go to a certain hotel," which I did. It says, "When the holiday hustle and bustle has passed, hope old of your jolly old ...he writes in here New York ...memories will last. Dear Jeannette: Hope you and everybody has a very, very Merry Christmas. Love you all. P.S. I don't need anything." And this one is from France, no, pardon me, Austria. This one's from Austria, but it's clearly a postcard from France. This one's from '74 that was sent to me. "Wish you were here" type of thing. So those are the kinds of things, objects, letters, and cards, any of those things that were used.

And even though law enforcement was aware of all this, the ritual abuse, the mind control programming, all of that, we filed only rape charges. Rape in the first degree, that carries the highest penalty. Not incest, even though incest may have occurred to you--you file rape. Because incest carries with it all kinds of connotations that have lower penalties. Did you all know, at least in the state of Kentucky, the closer the relationship of the victim to the perpetrator, the less time you get. Even though there's more damage done, you get less time. And that in itself is another whole hour just on why that is. I don't have time to go into that right now. In many, many states the closer the relationship of victim to perpetrator, the less time. As a matter of fact, I had to go to the state legislature and get something done about the Crime Victims' Compensation Fund which exists in every state, by federal law. When I went to the Crime Victims' Compensation Fund, cause I thought I might ask for some money for therapy costs, right? Well, they told me I wasn't eligible because I was related to my perpetrator. And they told me, "You might collude with your perpetrator to defraud the Fund." Bizarro, right?

OK. Now, here we go. More information to gather for your case. Medical records--get the medical records. Psychiatric medical records--get those. You want to have those, but don't be showing those and flashing those around. Even to your cop, until after he really gets to know you and the people you're working with really get to know you. They need to be sure you're not, you know, way out there like I am. But somehow they came to believe me. I had four police officers, four cops, go with me to the prosecutor's office. There's power in numbers. Get medical records, school records, church or religious records. I had a little bit of hard time getting some of that, but fortunately I had some of it left. I was in the Mormon Church until I was 13. I'm now a 'Mormon girl gone bad.' So I have been fighting cults all my life, trying to get out of that one. But I assure you, my father was not a practicing Mormon, it was just another organization that he used to procure victims. In the Mormon priesthood, a Grand Master Mason in the State of Kentucky, a Boy Scout leader, you know, just raking them in. Criminal records--hopefully you don't have a criminal record when you go forward. I was fortunate because I had no criminal record, but they had made sure I didn't have one. Meaning that there was a whole lot of coverage in the local area to make sure that we didn't get busted even though my brother and I were supplying the whole high school with every kind of drug there was. Not to mention my father was funding my brother as a major drug dealer to the creme de la crème in the state. So you got them---blackmail. So that left me free to basically run the streets without anything happening to me. Fortunately, as I later told the Attorney General and the Task Force on Child Sexual Abuse in a deposition I gave to all those state legislators, I'm lucky I'm not a prostitute, a drug addict, or a serial killer. I've got everything in my background that makes it possible. It's hard to accept, but it's true. Luckily, I did not act out in that way. I did have some other interests that kept me going. Use marriage records, if you have that. I know that many survivors have multiple marriages because of the inability to maintain stable relationships. I didn't have that; I've been married 17 years to one person, but you know, my thing was that I wasn't going to be involved in any controlling, what I thought could possible be a controlling, relationship. I fortunately married a very supportive gentleman who's one of 13 children. This is how good it gets: I think he's got the best comment of all time, to a psychiatrist he said, when I was brought into a hospital that was inappropriate.... I had called the crisis line and they couldn't get hold of my therapist, and they went "Oh my God, it's a multiple, call the police, get the EMS." So here comes the paddy wagon, three cop cars, you know..."Get the multiple." So they take me, put me in, the psychiatrist comes, and my husband comes to the hospital and says "I'm getting my wife out of here before you kill her." And the psychiatrist sets down in this quote family exit interview unquote and I'm sitting there with my husband and he looks at my husband and he says, "how can you stand being married to a woman like this, all these personalities?" And my husband looks at him and he says, "You don't know what the Hell you're talking about. I'm one of thirteen people in my family and I'm used to living with a lot of people." Is that the best? That's the best. OK So this guy, he's very supportive, he lets me do what he does, there's many people in this room that have talked to him. He'd be happy to talk to you and he's not a therapist, he's not trained, but I think he goes a long way in having a lot of good training and it comes from a non-abusive background. And God forbid, he has eight sisters. Pray for me--I have eight sisters-in-law. I'm joking; I'm trying to keep this light. I always wanted to be a stand up comedienne; just think, a stand-up comedienne about satanic ritual abuse and mind control!

Let me just briefly tell you all what it took. It was a three-year journey through the criminal justice system. Even though I had four police officers going with me to the prosecutor. This is after I contacted, did some information, cause remember, this information was given to me. I started asking around, what's the best cop? Who's the cult cop? And found out who that was: Officer B___. And I began to talk to him, and even though I didn't know this, I would go in and talk to him, the next thing you know, here's another part goes in and talks to him. I didn't even know that, cause I had a lot of my alters to go in and talk to the cops without me knowing about it. 'Cause that part's going, "oh, she needs to tell the kids." All of those things that survivors have; they want you to be silent, they want you to not tell and the whole system at least, that I had the whole system of not telling whose main purpose sabotaged therapy, sabotaged relationships, sabotage, sabotage, sabotage... in order to not tell. They're all going in to protect the perpetrators.

So after you checked out your cop, you've got your information together, here we go. Four of us go to the prosecutor's office, lay it out on the line, the prosecutor calls me in and I'm supposed to have a 'Victim's Advocate.' Supposed to have a "Victim's Advocate," folks! OK. OK, if you're not assigned one, you're supposed to have one. Well, I had one assigned to me, but I went in and the prosecutor dismissed her. He had the door blocked open with some bricks. You know how my head is going to spin around, spew green vomit and kill, or something. So he has the door blocked open, and basically the prosecutor was scared to death, didn't want to take this case, didn't want anything to do with it. So the next thing is you've got to bug the Hell out of them. The squeaky wheel will get somewhere. You get all those advocates, those state advocates, yada, yada, you get on TV, yada, yada, yada, and apply that kind of pressure, you know, any kind of people pressure you can marshal...do that. I want to tell you some things straight up that were a little bit unusual about my ability to do that. I do not have any children. One of four children in my sibling group, none of us has any children. That's statistically very rare. WOW. So that makes a difference, because they couldn't blackmail me, couldn't threaten my children. What are they going to do? Kill me? So after I did all of this, finally it came down to blackmailing the D.A. You may have to use blackmail. And I pulled a card on that, because that District Attorney could have arrested me right then for blackmail. Could have, but they all knew it was true and they all knew I had a lot of people on my side and didn't want to get anything else stirred up. The Attorney General from the State of Kentucky had appointed the Protection and Advocacy. They sent a whole contingent of people to get jurisdiction to grab that...get that case away from the local DA and take it to the state level. Which they eventually did , but not without me blackmailing the DA. I called him up one day and he just happened to answer the phone...it was just one of those rare things that happen...he answered the phone so I didn't have to go through that game of trying to reach somebody on the telephone. He answered and I said, "Why won't you release my case? The Attorney General wants to prosecute this case. Why won't you release it?" He said, "Well, you know, you've got MPD; you've got MPD and you're mentally ill." I said, "That's interesting cause I'm working for the same governmental agency you are, as a social worker. It's OK. I'm sane enough to be a social worker in the same governmental system, but I'm too crazy for justice." Kind of interesting, isn't it? So, I say to the DA, "If you won't release my case, I'll get five reporters lined up ready to roll." That's blackmail, folks. And I did it. I pulled the card; I didn't have anything else to lose because I was losing my sanity. When you have all these system authorities--the highest authority system, the criminal justice system telling you you're crazy, you can't get justice, you're raped and oh, you're related to the perpetrator, so just suffer, suffer, suffer, and I wasn't going to take it. That happened, they released it to the Attorney General, they appointed a Special Prosecutor, meanwhile, everybody knowing what this is.

But they had a couple of good things. For instance, my sister and these other collaborative witnesses, the detective set up a phone taping with my sister confronting my father and they got it on tape. Kind of interesting, isn't it? Well, here's what happened: the extradition papers, signed, ready to bring him back to the State of Kentucky. He was living in Ohio where the national board was located. He, at the time, had just come back that weekend from speaking to the Parliament of Hungary and what was then Yugoslavia, for their nuclear program, and he was found dead at home. It was...there was no autopsy done; it was signed off by a private physician, so exit stage left. He gets bumped off, that's the end of the case. It was kind of interesting, another one of my alleged perpetrators who was my father's personal attorney, who later became the Mayor of Louisville. The Mayor, we're talking about all the locals, that kind of stuff is what you're up against.

And interestingly enough as it turned out, because of this lady sitting right over here, in the yellow, I got kind of involved in her case of this protective mother trying to protect her children and it's a very interesting story and if you get a chance to talk to her, please talk to Debby. It's very interesting what she had to go through. It's not interesting; it's tragic and heartbreaking. But, by getting involved in this case, I ended up working with the cops I'm working with now, because her case brought the FBI to my door. My husband is so cool. He goes down and asks the FBI agent for his ID. He takes it out of his wallet and checks all of that out. Tells me what it's related to this case over here, so I bring him up into my office and torture the man for two hours. Verbally, like what's happening, what's really going on, blah, blah, blah, hand him a copy of the Franklin Cover-Up, "Read this and let's talk about it." And when I revealed to him there were a bunch of lies told about this woman and her husband. Her husband was a former CID agent at the time and he had active credentials, so when I told the FBI agent, "Hey, he's a CID agent working on this case," they said," Oooh, I didn't know that!" Criminal Investigative Division of the US Army. A beautiful relationship. And remember what Neil was saying today--they're not all the bad guy. Remember the dichotomy, good cop/bad cop. There's a bunch of them out there who are the really, really good guys and who really, really want to help us. But there are a couple of things. Many of them aren't educated; some of them, even if they could help us, are under an administration where politically these crimes don't exist. They won't even hardly prosecute 'garden-variety' sexual abuse. That's the kind of political pressure they're under. They're walking around like this; they're tiptoeing through the tulips. When these cops become involved with us, they're commonly called what? "Cult cops, cult cops!" They're like, "Oh, shiiiitttt!" It blows their minds, too. They become another secondary trauma victim. They get secondary PTSD. It's true.

So, this FBI agent calls me about a year later and says, "The local police department needs an expert in ritual crime to work with the local intelligence unit." I said, "Well, I can't recommend anybody." And they said, "Well, we chose you!" And I thought "Well, this is cool, they checked my ass out real good, they must have cleared me; either they think I'm legit or they think I'm nuts." So the cop that I ended up getting paired with thirty years ago investigated the case against my father's attorney (who later became the Mayor of Louisville,) regarding a pedophile ring case. They had the video tapes, all of that and they shut down the investigation. So he knew I was telling the truth, because he knew, he'd investigated the case. So the more you talk, the more you network, the more you're going to find out. And I know it's hard to talk. And I know it's hard to reveal. And it is not without its consequences if you do this. If you try to prosecute, your life is changed forever because it's in the public record and anybody can get access to that. Everybody knows you're MPD, everybody knows you're blah, blah, blah. And it's what you choose. And I was able to choose that, having a supportive husband and no children who could have their lives devastated by having this out in the public. It's very difficult and you're going to be harassed in these kinds of cases.

Boy, was I harassed. Here's a little message that was on the wall next to our house. This is a piece of commercial property next to the house we lived at and this was on the wall. "Life is short but love is long" With a skull and bones. There's a heart. Those are my initials right there. "We're just watching you!" Doesn't mean anything to me, it's just a nasty message. Some of the pictures and stuff that were turned over to law enforcement, it's very common for them to say, "Draw me a picture of where it happened." That's a very common tactic they use because if you tell them that it happened here in the investigation they're going to go. Specifically they want you to draw about someplace you've not been since it happened, because they're going to go and check and see if it matches. And it says, " That is a little girl. She is being raped. It hurt very bad. Ropes hung from the rafters." Altered states. But I do have childhood pictures. I apologize if this is triggering...but it is going to be triggering because it's what is, it's what happened. I'm sorry for that if it happens. This is an example of switching alters and switching handwriting. "Tie her down. I left..." This is one alter talking about dissociation. "Tie her down. I left her there. We went to another place. He laughed at me as he raped her." I put this drawing on the cover of my tape of "Holocaust"; has anybody got my song "Holocaust?" The song that's been...(unintelligible)

Oh yeah, this is...we were sort of talking about this last night, a group of us, asking why and these absurd answers we give ourselves. Why, why, why, why, why me, and why me? Because you were 'stupid.' I have an alter named 'Stupid.' OK. Here's the old pie-in-the-sky letter. "Don't do this unless you ...it takes a lot of serious work with a therapist, and I didn't have what I needed at the time and shouldn't have been writing these kinds of letters. And once again, switching to different alters. Look at the spelling. "There is a serious matter that needs to be addressed. Because of the emotional, physical and sexual abuse that you inflicted upon me throughout my childhood I have needed intensive psychotherapy once again, in order to help me overcome the lasting effects of this treatment by you. Even though, to undo the damage that was done to me, I believe that you can, and it would be right, for you to provide some restitution by paying for the bills I have incurred for the psychotherapy and persistent on-going therapy. I would suggest that you seek psychotherapy with a therapist who has expertise in working with someone who is engaged in sexual abuse." It isn't going to happen, folks! OK. Another example. "No one sees the lighting bolt that kills them. Only thunder tells them when danger is near." Ha, ha, ha, stupid, it's one of those alters..."don't tell, don't tell..." Another one of those 'shut-up' types of things... I'm going to stop right there because I could go on literally hours telling you about this. These examples I gave you are collaborative pieces that do make a difference and you have to be willing to share those. And can you trust the person you're willing to share this information with? It is a crapshoot, it really is. And you know, it's very hard to trust people in this, but we must trust someone. I'd like to open it to questions right now.

(?) unintelligible

Jeannette: Well, that's just another collaborative piece and through the criminal justice system it's really going to be up to those sparring partners--defense attorney vs. plaintiff--whether that's going to be admitted into court. That's questionable. But, there is...law enforcement can help me on this...in some cases it can be...in child sexual abuse cases it can...is admissible in court.

(?) unintelligible

Jeannette: Does that answer your question? I think that's when Neil came in. Yes, we recorded it. But you've got to remember, the person recording is the police officer. The police officer uses a separate phone...the police officer and my sister...without me present...he wants to make sure that it's different, that we're not contaminating it, that I'm not saying to her, 'well, ask him this and ask him that.' That's one piece in building a case. This is a police officer and he's building a case and he's using a tool that is available to him. So, I don't know where you were but after we went through that, I talked about going to the DA even though we had all of these pieces, you know the part about having four police officers, my main detective being one of them, going to the prosecutor to present this information. They'd go with me one time, then the prosecutor would ask me to come back alone. That's when I should have had my Victims' Advocate with me, but he'd dismissed the Victims' Advocate. That's not normal procedure. Oh, this is something very important that I need to tell you all about because it's very pivotal in getting through this system, and that is: When you're prosecuting a perpetrator...the prosecutor's supposed to represents you, OK. He's the attorney for the state and supposedly for you. That's not the case...he represents the state. So I hired my own attorney. I had an attorney who did it pro bono. Pretty amazing. And her job, even though she's not the prosecutor, is to make those phone calls and to let those prosecutors in the system know that I've got somebody watching the procedural issues of the court system.

(?) How do you figure out...(unintelligible)?

Jeannette: Call around...the good people to call is you know, a CPS worker that has a lot of experience or somebody in the office of public advocacy or protection and advocacy...most states have that. Just do a lot of asking around and see what name comes up over and over. Cause when they're good and you can get convictions...the administrative office of the courts try to get access to child sexual abuse or adult rape case data. To your rape crisis centers, ask in that manner.... who comes up. And it's still no guarantee as to who comes up, but you've got to keep asking. You don't throw all your cards down on the table the first time you meet somebody...that somebody being a cop. Because remember, a lot of these cases are so traumatic, and even though this cop has, maybe detective, has been on a hundred child sexual abuse cases, he's never come across a case like what you've got, and it's very traumatic. If you lay it all out there on the table for him, you know, all these 'who's who's' are involved in this and he's going to freak. He's going to get scared so hold back some of those cards.

(?) (unintelligible)

Jeannette: Absolutely. Absolutely, the question is "Were the tapes that were recorded between law enforcement with my sister asking the perpetrator...were those incriminating?" Yes. There are a lot of tools that detectives use, polygraphs and all kinds of things that may not be admissible, but they're tools that they use and I might add, they're intimidating tools that they use to see what kind of statements a perpetrator is going to give.

(?) (unintelligible)

Jeannette: Yes, first-degree rape charges. Yes. Presented to the grand jury. Grand jury...my detective...now here's another thing...the charges that were filed because I couldn't get the DA to file them. In my state, guess what, guess who filed them? I went down and filed a warrant against my father on first-degree rape charges. I could do that. My detective went down with me, cause he was frustrated. He said, "Jeannette, the DA, you know, they're stonewalling you, they're not going to do this, let's go, we'll file ourselves." He had the right to do that in my state. And we filed those charges and that forced the District Attorney to appoint a prosecutor to the case. Then after that, the local prosecutors in that jurisdiction were still stonewalling, so that's when I went to the next level, to the Attorney General's office and they took jurisdiction of that case. They wrenched it away, but only after I blackmailed the DA.

(?) (unintelligible) said to me was the fact that with the criminal justice system you have to remember that you have to find an incidence that there is actually a law for and I think a lot of people don't realize that there are not necessarily the laws that they need.... (unintelligible)

Jeannette: Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe that there are only 7 states in the United States that have ritual abuse statutes. There no laws in most states...so you have to be specific. Is it child pornography? Is it rape in the first, second, third degree? Is it child sexual abuse? Is it incest charges? Go for the highest charge that you've got proof, that you know, or at least you think, is winnable in court. So you're right, a lot of people don't realize that there's a lot of 'no laws.'

(?) unintelligible

Jeannette: Yes, three days before extradition, and he would have been extradited except he was out of the country presenting to the parliament in Yugoslavia. As soon as he got back into the States, literally that night, he died at home, signed off by a private physician. The private physician said he died of a heart attack; there were no physical problems. There was no autopsy and law enforcement can answer this...that would be very rare, somebody who was going to be extradited for felony charges...

(?) How old was he?

Jeannette: Sixty-four.

(?) (unintelligible)

Jeannette: Right. There would normally be an autopsy to prove that, and it was not done, and it was signed off at home by a private physician. Usually that's done by the coroner.

(?) How do you feel about that? Do you have questions that are unanswered, or are you satisfied that he was going to be extradited and (unintelligible)?

Jeannette: At first, I was really disappointed, but kind of like "Oh, happy day..." But, I have a completely different perspective on that now, and that perspective is I am so fortunate. So very few people even get close to this. It's rare. And I did not know that, I did not know that for a few years, but it's very difficult and rare, but it can be done. What I'm hoping, if not for yourself, if you know of another survivor, you too can pass on some of this information that can help them get through the criminal justice system. It can be done. I got to this point, but maybe it was OK. And even though he's dead, dead men do tell tales.

(?) Do you think that he is in, or was in, any organized group of...?

Jeannette: Yes. He was the Executive Director of a quasi-governmental agency. My father was a Merchant Marine, he was on one of these ships that was watching the hydrogen bombs blow up and then he came back and helped build (he was an engineer) helped build the uranium processing plant in Paducah, Kentucky. That's where they processed most of the uranium that went into making nuclear bombs for this country. And now, in the paper, there's all kinds of talk...I've talked to a couple of reporters and attorneys who are involved in it, and yeah, they're aware of radiation experiments being conducted on people there. My father, being a 33+ degree Mason, a Grand Master Mason, I got that document and that evidence...I got sneaky, too! Even after my father had died, I asked, and they sent a whole Masonic contingent from Kentucky to do their rituals at his funeral. Ooooh, yeah! So I got them and I talked (little girl's voice) "Oh, I am Mr. McDonald's daughter." "We're sorry for your loss." "But, I would like to get any documents that you have related to his funeral..." And so they complied! And they put on the back...I can't believe I used that word 'they complied'...so they put on the back all of the signatures in their handwriting of who was there performing the rituals. So...there's little tricks. I'm devious, I'm telling you, and that's the way you have to be, and that's where I came from, you know, 'the little Mormon girl who has gone bad!' that became the cynical...it's more than surviving. I'm going to be thriving! So now, you know what I like doing most of all is helping other survivors try to get through this and I really like getting through the criminal justice system. I really like that. I like working with cops a whole lot and it's kind of wild. My husband will say, "Who're you talking to?" and I'll say, "I'm talking to a cop, you know, FBI...." It's another world, but if we don't help the cops to help us then who will? (Applause) I think it's time. It's time. I could go on and on. If anybody needs any assistance or wants to talk to me or anything, I'm very open to that. I apologize because I do go at 'warp factor 9' and do try to get through this as fast as I can. I literally could go a whole day with this kind of stuff, but we just don't have the time and I've taken hours. Professor Pepinsky over here...I'll take what? Three hours on a presentation or more. And I mean it could go on, and it does go on because after it's over it's not over! Let's have something to drink and let's have something to eat and let's keep on keeping on. I thank you all very, very much. What Neil said earlier...we need each other, we need the strength, everybody's got a little piece of the puzzle to help us in this. It takes a tremendous amount of courage just to tell about what you've been through.

(?) (Unintelligible)

Jeannette: Exactly. A visual witness.

Jeannette: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And that's exactly, exactly right. We chose a different path...could have been, could have been. And thank you all so very much.