## Interview with Walter H. Bowart

### July 16, 1995
San Jose, California

> Part II

> MC: Now this is the natural or non-mind control method, now how is this done artificially?

> WB: Well you see now, you can live with all that. But I mean let's just talk about the so-called natural...

> MC: Then oppose it to the way it's done under mind control.

> WB: As far as I'm concerned from what I'm finding out, the natural level of abuse of children is too high.

> MC: But what I'm saying is that I'd like to know if ... now again my experience with some of the people that I know, for instance behaviorists, Skinnerians, they did things to their children, now I'm talking about 25 years ago, acquaintances of mine that I've worked with, well they used Skinnerian cribs, they used various behavioral techniques on their children which I would not constitute as torture or mind control but did, to me, seem non humane. Now what did the government do beyond the Skinnerian Behavioral Techniques? What we want to know here is ... so people can understand what happened and then bring it up to now ... and its being done even on a higher level of science.

> WR: For the benefit of the audience, let's go into a little detail on Skinnerian cribs.

> MC: After, a Skinnerian crib, as I observed it, was an environment to create a womb-like environment for the child after birth, which in itself was not cruel, but the parents were supposed to have limited sensation by touch of this child. The child was suspended in something that loved somewhat like a waterbed, it was suspended in the air and according to Skinner it would create a person that was non-dependent on his parents. It would be a freer, non-non-contaminated individual. It would grow up to be one of the super people because Skinner felt that you could create any personality by nutrition; there would be lights, there would be sound, and there would be things. But the parents were asked to limit their touching of this child except to feed it. And it was done on a very very ... the schedules were very abrupt. By our standards.

> WR: What I'm. getting at: how would that effect the family unit?

> MC: They were experimenting on their own child.

> WR: No that's not what I mean. What kind of product would this create?

> MC: We don't know. The products are walking around. Who knows which ones they are.

> WB: We know about Debbie Skinner. She committed suicide.

> MC: Yes, thank you, that's true. He did his own kids.

> WR: That's what I wanted to know. I was trying to get some feedback from somebody who knows a little more about this. Either you or Walter.

> MC: Now I don't know what happened to this child that I observed.

> WB: I only know about Skinner what I've read and I haven't read all that but I think they were rather extreme. I don't think most people would go to that extreme.

> MC: And that's the point. In the university setting people have used their children. Again we know this from our research, they use their children. Now some at a very sinister level. but these people felt they were doing the right thing.

> WB: Yes well ... we find MPD is multi-generational and this is what the intelligence community has known for a long time.

> MC: And these were the highest level of the intellectual, cream of the crop, in your ivory tower academia, they were doing that.

> WB: If you were abused as a child you will probably abuse your children. And probably this goes back to your grandfather or your grandparents.

> MC: And according to the program that I went to: almost at the same age you were abused. the abuser goes to seek out the child. If he was abused at six months, he will go and abuse, he or she because there are shes that do it also, at six months. It's amazing, they will repeat what was done to them.

> WB: And sometimes, it amazing and surprising that the mothers do it. That's what surprised me.

> MC: There are many more female abusers of children. Society does not want to talk about that.

> WR: Have you ever come in contact with any of the Skinnerian products, you might say?

> WB: yeah, I have.

> WR: Any observations?

> WB: Well, Just that it was a form of abuse. Isolation, deprivation, alienation, man that's what it was. It was a foam of abuse.

> WR: But what I'm saying is can you actually tell one by a personality trait possibly or ...

> WB: Not specifically, it all fits into this abuse pattern. One of these files I have, I'm. looking for a picture of this Debbie Skinner, I don't know, have you seen it in here?

> MC: But, you know what I'm getting at. I'm trying to talk about what's being done now and how a person would have been altered as a child in experimentation, because I think people would like to know if they were possibly exposed to that kind of medical treatment.

> WB: Well, if they can't remember their childhood, say ten or before, then chances are there is something going on.

> Now, we could be talking here and there is certainly enough on this tape to trigger certain people and if they lapse into unconsciousness and have missing time they should see a therapist and start therapy as soon as possible. Now again, Colin Ross said he thought there could be as many as ten million people that were so programmed. A lot of them were abused by their parents and then picked up by the intelligence community. In one case, a very vocal naming names and everything is Kathy O'Brian. And she tells the story of her father using herself and her brother in porn films as children and sending them through the mails. And he got busted by the postal authorities or whoever it is that checks that. Then they came to him and he was about to go to trial. And they said look if you want to get out of this you'll play ball with us and its the Department of Defense. Of course, they weren't ... they were probably CIA, but they said we'll show you how to do this for real. We'll show you how to torture her and then you'll torture her for us, for our purposes. And that started a lifetime of her service to, first of all, as a cute little girl to have sex with politicians and then later as a drug mule and then as a courier to carry secret messages and so on.

> WR: Which brings us a little further along in the time-line.

> WB: This was in the sixties.

> WR: I don't want to jump ahead if there is a part in between there let me know but I think if we jump to the fifties then we get into Candy Jones. Which is a classic example that you mention in your book.

> WB: After 194l we have this early case and in '43 Hoffman discovered LSD and then ten years later the CIA tried to corner the world supply and buy it all up. From '40 to '47 the US Army conducted numerous experiments in hypnosis, and Estabrooks, Watkins and Fischer were the prominent researchers. In 1950 Richard Helms was the DCI and was accompanied by two doctors who visited the USA embassy annex in Japan where four Japanese were suspected of being Soviet agents and they were interrogated with sodium amitol and Benzedrine and after experiencing the ultimate injections of these depressants and stimulants for 24 hours the CIA documents indicate that the guys confessed. In October of the same year the team flew to Korea where they conducted similar tests on twenty-five North Korean POWs and this time they had no success. Now these are just some of the highlights of the kind of research and the way this thing developed. That same year in 1950, the director of the Research Center for Addiction at Lexington, Kentucky kept some men on LSD for 77 straight days and addicts were paid off in heroin if they took part in the CIA drug test. In '51 McGills University's Donald Held received a $23,000 contract with Canada's Defense Research Board to study methods of producing attitude change through perceptual isolation have also received $30,000 from Rockefeller Foundation for similar research. And I'm going to get to Candy Jones in just a minute. In '5l, scientists representing the US CIA, Canada's DRB and Great Britain's MI6 met on June first to discuss sharing their research findings on mind control. Britain's Henry Tissard said his country had not, at that time, conducted any such research. And of course the CIA representatives are Carl Haskins and R.J. Williams. In '52 the Department of Navy awarded $300,000 to a Dr. Richard Wendt of the University of Rochester to conduct mind control research, originally known as "Project Chatterbox". This secret project was later renamed "Project Castigate" after the CIA got involved. Wendt claimed he had a substance that would rnake anyone talk but he refused to disclose the ingredients and his research was carried out in Frankfurt, West Germany. After some effort the cryptocracy learned that Wendt was using dexadrine secanol and tetrahydrocanibanol. The records did not say that the CIA used his own potion on Wendt to obtain this information.

> MC: And this is a footnote to say that this is some of your mad doctors and even they couldn't control this fellow. He's sort of a legend as being really out there.

> WR: Yeah, in '53 "Operation Artichoke" used subjects who were suspected of being double agents and individuals of "dubious loyalty" in mind control experiments and that went on for ten years. And years later the Congressional investigation revealed that it was satisfied with six drugs it had developed for use in a variety of operations. So in the same year, 1953, the CIA rented adjacent apartments in Greenwich village where they photographed unsuspecting civilian guinea pigs as they reacted to drugs as they were slipped surreptitiously into their drinks. The agency claimed that only 53 subjects were drugged in this field experiment and in the same year CIA funded National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) grants which found their way to the University of California, Berkeley, where Timothy Leary was hard at work studying how to diagnose personality. There he was introduced to the cryptocracy by his drinking buddy, Frank Baron. In 1954, CIA secret grants flowed to Harvard where Ph.D. Timothy Leary was conducting a study of how to change behavior by giving prisoners LSD in the Concord Corrections Facility. Leary's boss at Harvard was David McClellan Former OSS employee. In 1955 to '59 MKUltra Mind Control Research was conducted at forty-four US colleges and universities in the United States and

> Canada. In 1956 the society for the Investigation of Human Ecology headed by Herald Wolf gave Canadian Dr. Ewing Cameron $38,000 plus for psychic driving experiments. It was revealed years later that the society was a CIA front organization. A little footnote on that. That human ecology group funded John Max's early stuff.

> WR: You know there's another footnote to that, too. If my memory serves me well, I think it's mentioned ... it's either in Mass Murderers in White Coats, the one by Lenny Lapin. I believe Margaret Singer was connected with this group.

> WB: And Robert J. Lifton was a partner of Max.

> WR: Now, Singer went on to join the Occult Awareness Network. In fact she was the big front person out there at Waco.

> MC: In fact I was sitting there watching Waco burn down and she looms on my TV and I almost fainted right in my living room! There are folks! We have to be sure we can track these faces, that why we're going back this way.

> WR: So to continue, in 1957 the Technical Services Division of CIA moved six drugs from the experimental category to the operational category. The CIA operators used LSD and psychoactive chemicals on 33 targets in 6 different operations. This is all official, released by the CIA.

> MC: That's the point. This is what we know about.

> WB: In 1952, and it went on until 1962, the MKUltra experiments continued but in the end it was announced that the CIA experiments scored no major breakthrough with LSD or any other of the 149 different drugs that they experimented with. They said they found no effective truth drug, recruitment pill or aphrodisiac. They could not control any body's mind. They were unsuccessful in creating even one Manchurian candidate, the classified documents said. In 1959 to 1971 pinup poster girl Candy Jones or Jessica Wilcox was involved in years of courier and sex operations under the CIA's MKUltra direction. She used aliases such as Arlene Grant and is thought to be one of the first presidential models along with Marilyn Monroe by other surviving presidential models. She was a multiple personality - she had MPD. So that brings us up to Candy Jones.

> MC: I have a questions. I would like to know if you have this information. All right, here we have a scenario of drug use by the government on the population. At what point did we have our freelancers going out there and using these drugs for profit and for play out on the streets. Because I know there must have been a leak and where do you think that happened?

> WB: Well, we know that some of the drug labs Leary was connected with and that Billy Hitchcock got involved in funding and banking, putting the profits in the Swiss banks. That's all public information in the courts and that happened throughout this period in the 60's and into the 70's apparently.

> MC: Was that freelance or was the government involved with those profits and the manufacture.

> WB: See this is the way the visible government works. Hitchcock went to school with all the spooks. His dad was the roommate, Tommy Hitchcock. was the roommate in WWII with David Bruce who was the Chief of Technological Intelligence of OSS. Avril Harriman was a family

> friend. They're part of the establishment. So even though they were making profits from this no questions but there was an intelligence atmosphere around this whole thing. And we have the records in the CIA files of the CIA contacting Leary and Alsley and Huxley and various other people.

> MC: The reason I ask is because when you talk about a time-line about the experimentation with LSD and various other drugs, five or six of them, my experience was that I was in a program but I want to know whether it was sanctioned by the University of California or whether it was a freelance. Is there documentation to that effect?

> You can probably find your files in there, except that Richard Helms destroyed 152 separate files. But we have reason to believe that ...

> WR: Now back in, I'm not sure which year - it might have been in '78 - it might even have been 1980, but it was quite a few years ago. There was a little blip byline that I believe appeared in Freedom Magazine in which you mentioned that you had proof or that you had Leary admit that he was working for the CIA.

> WB: Yes I even have an audio tape of it.

> MC: I'd like to interject this before people think I'm a nut case. I have never had, as far as I could see, any bad effects of any of the things in the program that I was in. In fact, I think it's enhanced me as a human being. I do not use this as an endorsement to use drugs. I am not a drug addict. I never have been. But I have to say that some of the work was done by a lot of very legitimate people into me mind and into the expansion of mind. It's unfortunate that these people used it to hurt mankind when there was probably a point where it could have been used to help people.

> WB: Well, the strange thing about all this government testing and everything is that it's as old as our history and very often it comes out of war. And of course we were in a thing called the Cold War at the time. Even though it may have been an artificial war it was a war for the battle for men's minds.

> WR: And their pocketbooks.

> WB: Oh yeah, but I mean grab their minds, their pocketbooks follow you know. As a matter of tact, one high ranking ... on CCN-it was on there once, when the Soviet Union fell and the whole thing fell apart, they flew a guy back to New York, a high-ranking KGB officer Karl somebody or other-l can't pronounce his name-and he said ... they asked him why did this fall apart - collapse? And he said America won the battle for the mind. And that was it. And they did it once and they never put it on again.

> MC: It's one of those things you hear and you just want the rest.

> WB: Leary and those boys were all involved and of course it was involved many Hollywood characters were involved. John Lilly was around. You know the famous story about Court Meyer's wife, Mary Meyer and Leary. And she was turning on President Kennedy and John Kennedy and then she was murdered. And so there's a lot of CIA ... there were several factions in the CIA. Now we know for example Olson - Frank Olson - who in "Operation Mind Control #1. I forgot what I said, in '78 he pushed, fell or otherwise exited from the whatever Story.

> MC: And his wife very recently got compensation.

> WB: Well more than that. They exhumed his body just a year ago and they found out he was dead before he left the window. He was thrown out. They crushed his skull and threw him out the window. You know so someone killed him. Now, it wasn't LSD at all. Probably LSD wasn't even involved in that.

> MC: They used that as a cover.

> WB: As a cover.

> WR: Which brings us back to how on a lot of things in order to get at the truth you have to go through a lot of cut out stories and layers.

> MC: So what's happened with that case since then?

> WB: We don't know about that but they're going to reopen the suit. Murder is a different case.

> WR: Now he was running around with the crowd Gottlieb ...

> WB: Lashbrook ...

> WR: White, Colonel White ...

> WB: Was he there?

> WR: I don't know if he was in the room hut he was part of that crowd.

> WB: Colonel White was one of the most insidious part because he was part of the Bureau of Narcotics and dangerous drugs. It was a precursor, his behavior's been linked to "the war on drugs" operations of the DEA.

> MC: He was a cop!

> WB: He's a smuggler and he used the drugs and he sold the drugs.

> MC: Who does that sound like? It's sounds like so many of our political fellows we have running around now who are nothing more than fancy drug pushers.

> WR: Well they had to have a role model!

> WB; We know for a fact that what the government denies free enterprise supplies. And it's well documented that if you make something illegal, no matter what you do you give power to it and people want it if you say you can't have it. So that raises price and then in comes the underground economy. And that's one of the reasons ... the underground economy is bigger than the regular economy in the United States of America. And that's one of the reasons they want to do away with the income tax.

> MC: So the next thing we're talking about here is what I see in this time-line is drugs being used at a certain point. Now I guess what we're going to continue on is when they get beyond drugs into the next step of the occult. These things keep moving along. The attempts to control ...

> WB: Now the occult has always been with us. T he occult is any myth, metaphor or symbol in your mind, in my mind, in any body's mind that means something.

> WR: Just like me word "crypto" means "secret" "occult" means "hidden".

> WB: That's it. It's something inside yourself. Now if I know that you think that you had a mystical experience and it involved butterflies, I'm going to use a butterfly to control you. If neurolinguistics programming has taught us anything it has taught us that if you understand a person's beliefs you can manipulate by their own beliefs. So that's what all the symbolology is about. I would like to take exception and maybe this is not the appropriate time to do it with the word "occult" because it means a "small group". that's all it means. And I think that we're misplacing what is a tribal, even a McCluan approach would be appropriate, a retribalization is going on. Our families have failed us. Family society has failed us. Therefore people are looking to "gangs" and "cults" and other things to replace the failure of the family. These are tribal things.

> WR: sort of a surrogate family you might say.

> WB: Yeah, someone said to me there is no such thing as a homeless person. There are only people without a tribe. And they are tribeless people. And if you think McCluan predicted this in the 60's. And in fact its playing out right now m the information age mat we are retribalizing and there is a realignment. You know your family isn't going to support you as much as the members of your own People that are locked together in a like belief system.

> MC: And that is exactly what I was saying in the beginning of this, that its up to us to hold ourselves together, to trust and to love and to share these concepts and ideas so that we can protect the tribe of humans. Because the tribe of humans are dying!

> WB: The tribe of humanity. And here I go again saying about this new technology leapfrogging to the end of the story, fast forward from the 50's to the 90's. OK in 1963 CIA personnel helped the underground chemists in the San Francisco hay area set up illegal laboratories to manufacture LSD and related psychedelic drugs. President John Kennedy decided to do away with the federal deficit and was considering taking monetary production away from the Federal Reserve Board when he was assassinated in a public blood ritual traumatizing the nation. Was the media used to issue the imbedded commands? Good question. What's the first thing that changed that came to your mind alter the assassination You have to ask yourself.

> WR: Well, the first change was the Vietnam War was back on track and escalated.

> MC: Which was also of course a blood letting and vary ritualistic. War being one of the primary sacrificial aspects of human life.

> WB: Yeah, so the way it would happen is trauma, then suggestion. And then the suggestion would forever change something in the public consciousness. What do you think; that was?

> MC: Public execution for one - assassination.

> WB: I think that after the assassination of John Kennedy people no longer believed in the government.

> MC: Oh yes, but I mean the whole idea of the fact that it could be done.

> WR: What was practiced overseas by the CIA had come home to roost at that point.

> MC: I see what you're saying.

> WB: Now they feared the government. And I think it was done on purpose in public. They could have ... I understand attempts were made to kill him in private. Yes, so it's like a parental control. Like a punishment concept.

> WB: So now you guys are going to get in line because we can even kill your president. And I understand from survivors in those days, women who that are now in their forties, most of them late forties, who were teenagers at the time Kennedy was assassinated, their handler came to them. These were traumatized women, abused women, controlled women that were being used as gorgeous little sex slaves and their handlers came to them and said, "See? We can kill Kennedy; we can kill anybody." And this has been repeated to me several times in several interviews by various people.

> MC: Now here's something off the cuff: Marilyn Monroe had a history of abuse and had gone to foster homes and various things. Do you think she could have been a mind control subject?

> WB: The survivors have told me that she was. They know more about it than I do. But they said the pattern of her life and her behavior indicates that she was one of the first so-called presidential models. And you know she was right up there sleeping at the top.

> MC: That's right. Because you know all the things that I've read ... many books ... Susan Strasburg's book is very interesting because it shows that personality. That she was different personalities with different people. Everyone knew a different Marilyn Monroe according to Susan Strasburg. We may have a different personality changing.

> WB: So we may have another Candy Jones. And that's what they said. In 1964, the DCI and the CIA Director Richard Helms ordered that a Soviet defector, KGB Colonel Yuri Senko undergo psychiatric evaluation to determine if he was telling the truth. Now Senko gave the CIA information about bugs in the US embassy in Moscow and named over twenty KGB sleeper agents in the west. After 3 1/2 years in the hands of the mind control specialists, he was released. Helms remained skeptical of this Senko story some which eventually proved to be true. In '65-'66, the CIA funded project Operation Resurrection which subjected lobotomized apes to radio telemetric electronic brain stimulation. The apes brains were stimulated by wires implanted inside their skulls for a while. Then their heads were decapitated and transferred to other bodies to see if energy from radio frequency could revive the animals. In 1966, other apes were bombarded with radar waves which sautéed their brains within their craniums. Today that technology is available through a private company, run by a former government weapons engineer in Alamagordo, New Mexico. And does this not sound like Nazi experimentation?

> #### To be continued...

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