## CKLN-FM Mind Control Series -- Part 21

# Fritz Springmeier Interview

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CKLN fm 88.1
International Connection
Ryerson Polytechnical University
Toronto, Canada

Wayne Morris:

Good morning, welcome to the International Connection. This is show #35 in the radio series on Mind Control and over the next few shows we are going to be talking to Fritz Springmeier and Cisco Wheeler, co-authors of the "Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Total Mind Control Slave" and "Deeper Insights", books about trauma based conditioning mind control. Fritz is a researcher about the Illuminati and minister to mind control victims. Cisco Wheeler says she is from a generational Illuminati family and that trauma-based mind control was perpetrated against her from birth. We will hear the interview with Cisco in a couple of weeks, and today we are going to hear an interview with Fritz Springmeier. Fritz talks about the Illuminati families and how they have used mind control to consolidate their power throughout history. You are listening to CKLN 88.1 FM.

I am speaking with Fritz Springmeier author, lecturer and minister to mind control survivors. Welcome to the show Fritz.

Fritz Springmeier:

Thank you and hello to all you listeners out there in radioland. I encourage you to participate with our program today because we are going to be speaking about some important things that affect your life and will affect the lives of your grandchildren.

Wayne Morris:

I would like to start off with asking you how you first came across the information about government mind control.

Fritz Springmeier:

Government mind control overlaps with many other things - it overlaps with a higher government and a secret world government called the Illuminati. As I investigated the Illuminati I had to also learn about their front that they operate. They hide behind the veil of National Security. They use our patriotism against us and make us think that for our own interest, for our own security of our own nations, that we have to subject ourselves to all the secrecy that they impose upon us.

Wayne Morris:

Did you come across all the information about mind control through your research into the Illuminati, or vice versa?

Fritz Springmeier:

Yes, through the Illuminati. That's not to say that I hadn't been watching the government too, but a lot of what we see out front is just that - it's a front and if we really want to understand what's going on, we have to look behind that front.

Wayne Morris:

Maybe you could explain to our listeners, to your understanding, who are the Illuminati?

Fritz Springmeier:

The Illuminati are the movers and shakers of the world. They are an elite group of bloodlines - I call these tribes or families - there are 13 major bloodlines. They are what are called "generational satanists". That means that they have practised their secret witchcraft for many centuries and they have passed their religion down from one generation to the next. They lead double lives. They have one life that the world sees and then they have a hidden life that the world doesn't see. There have been very few people that have been able to break through the secrecy. They have taken secrecy to a fine art that I would never have believed that anyone could achieve until I started getting into this, and there have been very few people over the years that have broken through that secrecy at all. There was a man named John Robison who wrote proofs of a conspiracy against all the religions and governments in Europe carried on in the secret meetings of the Freemasons, the Illuminati and reading societies. That came out in 1798 and the Bavarian government, by raiding several safe houses of the Illuminati, captured original Illuminati documents back at that time period which were bound and sent out to all the governments entitled: "Die Originalschriften des Illuminatens Ordens" (sp?) as the German title the Bavarian government gave it.

But in modern times there have been very few people that have been able to talk about the Illuminati as it exists today, and that's been my job. To bring to the world who these people are, what their traditions are, what they are doing, everything about them. The reason I am giving a longer version here to your question is that when someone asks who or what are the Illuminati, they do not think like we do. People often times interpret things around them in terms of how they themselves think or their own world view. If you want to understand the Illuminati, you have to understand that these people do not think like you or I.

In just one area alone, that is a large percentage of these people are programmed multiple personalities and just that in itself creates a whole different thinking pattern from those of us who are not multiple.

Wayne Morris:

When you say the Illuminati, is this the same group that is documented that Adam Weishaupt had started back in 1776 in Bavaria? Is this the same group?

Fritz Springmeier:

It's the same group. He actually didn't start the organization, it goes way back. These are oligarchical families that are extremely powerful and if you go back in history and ask yourself the question, "when did the elite, powerful, oligarchical families ever give up their power?" You can't find any point in history. These are the families that - some of these bloodlines go clear back to Nimrod. The Rothschild secret genealogy that they have secretly written down through the centuries, traces their genealogy back to Nimrod. These people were the ones that controlled the mystery religions. There was a supreme council that sat over all of these mystery religions of the ancient world. They were an extremely powerful priesthood, and they chose to go underground for many years and continue working behind the scenes. But they never left.

At the end of WWII there was a committee that was sent out throughout Europe to do a study of all of the churches that had been destroyed by the war, and they discovered that in most of these Christian churches (80%) they found that where the Christian alter had been, when these churches had been destroyed, underneath these alters were pagan alters that had been uncovered. So what you have is that a lot of these cathedrals were built on lay lines that were very powerful occult spiritual points and on after hours these churches were used for what we would call satanic rituals. So this has been going on secretly for many centuries.

Wayne Morris:

And you are saying that the Illuminati are responsible for infiltrating these churches?

Fritz Springmeier:

These are our movers and shakers, very powerful bloodlines. For instance, one of these bloodlines includes all of your royal families of Europe. They are the people that have been in control. If you look at a lot of these nation states, you will notice that at the head of their church are their kings and queens.

Wayne Morris:

You mentioned there are 13 families in the generations of the Illuminati families? Can you name them?

Fritz Springmeier:

I came out with a book that was specifically designed to go family by family and discuss them. The top 13 bloodlines are the Astors, Bundy, Collins, Dupont, Freeman, Kennedy, Leigh, Onassis, Rockefellers, Rothschild, Russell ... then there is a 13th bloodline which is the Merovingian bloodline. I just simple call it the 13th and then there is the Van Dine Illuminati bloodline. The 13th bloodline, the Merovingian, is extremely important. It includes the royal families of Europe. In my Volume I book which covers the Top Thirteen Illuminati Bloodlines, that's the title to it, I don't go into the Merovingian bloodline so much because there came out a trilogy of books, "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" and two other books by their authors - Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln - which is so good in discussing this bloodline that wasn't any real reason for me to go into it.

For instance Prince Charles would be part of that. If you look at Prince Charles, you will notice in his genealogy he is related to our Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Madison, both of the Harrisons, Tyler, Taylor, George Bush. Bush's vice president, Dan Quayle, was also related to the royal family. Prince Charles is also related to Mrs. Woodrow Wilson. Here in the USA the concept is that we have all of these individuals who have been selected to run this country who are unrelated to each other -- and yet it is quite the contrary.

I have been told when they dedicated George Bush's library in Texas recently, that President Carter mentioned that he was reading a recently published book about the Presidents being somehow related to each other.

Wayne Morris:

When did you first realize the existence of the Illuminati? What information came your way to spark your interest?

Fritz Springmeier:

Everybody has probably heard of Jehovah's Witnesses and how they would go out and knock on people's doors. I was the opposite. I was a Christian missionary to bring Jehovah's Witnesses to Christ and I was getting tired of working with these little Jehovah's Witnesses on the street, and I was praying to God to be given the power to decapitate the authoritarian organization that is over these Jehovah's Witnesses. At that point, I got my prayer answered. I got this confidential information that the heads of the Watchtower Society were collaborating with the heads of the Latter Day Saints church. That information totally changed my life. I had bumped into the Illuminati and their mind control, and I am not to single out the Watchtower Society and the Mormon church because I found out that their infiltration and control is pretty well right across the whole spectrum. Your Christian organizations in general have been infiltrated and controlled from behind the scenes.

This is when I first bumped into the Illuminati. I had learned about 20 years previous to this what a lot of people are already aware of about the Council of Foreign Relations, Trilaterial Commission and these types of groups, the Bilderbergers - but there is a whole other level to things. When I started getting into reading, researching and trying to help people that wanted out of the Illuminati to get out - I started getting in at that level. Then I had to work with the mind control. One thing led to another.

Wayne Morris:

What is the relationship of the groups you just mentioned to the Illuminati?

Fritz Springmeier:

There are a lot of groups around the world that are making decisions that are controlling things from behind the scenes and these particular groups are fronts for the Illuminati. Not fronts in the sense that they have no actual purpose, they serve a purpose. But there is a hidden level of control back behind them.

Wayne Morris:

In terms of the Illuminati families and the whole organization itself, what are their goals? Why have they infiltrated so many of these organizations?

Fritz Springmeier:

Ultimately it's to bring in what people have termed the New World Order with a man who will hold the world's attention and carry the title The Antichrist. That's the ultimate goal and I am not trying to wax religious on people but that's just the simple fact. When you get into deprogramming people you will see that a lot of the things they have been programmed to do tie in with a very sophisticated plan to unify the world under the reign of the Antichrist.

Wayne Morris:

You mentioned that the Illuminati group has used mind control to further their goals. How did you first come into this? You have been working with your partner, Cisco Wheeler, who I understand was an Illuminati mind control victim. How did you first meet and realize what was going on there?

Fritz Springmeier:

She was trying to break free of her mind control. What I stumbled upon was, at least in my opinion, the greatest slavery involved in all history. You had four high level Illuminati women who had been teamed together. They had all become Christians and were trying to break free and had become a support system for each other. Here I was a researcher of the Illuminati, there's a lot to try and explain. When you are under the mind control, there is a lot of programming not to reveal the secrets. It is very difficult for someone who has been in the Illuminati and received their standard mind control to not divulge what is going on, so it made it much easier to work with me that I had already done my homework, and they knew I was going to understand what they were talking about. They didn't have to say a lot to communicate certain things, because I was already aware and that saved them from a lot of the grief from the program kicking in for having talked too much.

Cisco was part of this group attempting to escape the mind control, and I got involved in their lives and did what I could to help them. I brought Cisco out of the Illuminati and in return my learning curve about the Illuminati was greatly increased because I was given inside information from these people and a number of other people. Like I say, trying to understand the secret organization, the secret bloodlines is very difficult, because one has to stand outside of one's own culture and own way of thinking and understand these people as they think, and they do not think like we do. Being able to work with these people who were in the Illuminati was very valuable.

Wayne Morris:

Because they have used mind control techniques on their own family members throughout the years?

Fritz Springmeier:

Oh yes. They have been carrying out this mind control on their own people as well as others for centuries and this has all been a very closely guarded secret. It's one of the reasons why they have been able to carry out so much to implement this New World Order without people being able to figure out there is such a thing as a worldwide unified conspiracy. They are very skilled in knowing how to bring things about so they appear natural.

Wayne Morris:

What is the purpose of them using mind control on their own family members?

Fritz Springmeier:

It's really essential. If you are going to participate in the Illuminati secret life, being a programmed multiple is basic. There are a few in the Illuminati who aren't programmed multiples, but considering what one has to participate in. You've got a number of standard rituals involved - St. Weinbald, St. Agnes, Grand Climax, Walpurgis, Beltane, all your solstices and equinoxes, Lamas, All Hallow's Eve, High Grand Climax -- all of these standard rituals. These rituals are very horrific. They involved human sacrifice. Sacrifices of babies on the High Grand Climax. On various Sabbats you've got a young female or a male being sacrificed.

This is not something that the normal mind is going to be able to handle. The mind control and the creation of multiple personalities where you get a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde effect - is very crucial to this thing continuing from generation to generation.

Wayne Morris:

They really use the multiple personalities to facilitate this double life that they have to lead ... before we get into the techniques that they use for mind control and the details of that, you mentioned they seem to have a belief system as well. Could you talk about that?

Fritz Springmeier:

The Illuminati is the continuation of the Mystery Religions and as someone comes an adept of the Illuminati they have to learn a whole series of paths. They give the different types of cult knowledge names from the 12 Apostles plus the 13th is called the Holy Grail. These men and women become very skilled in occult knowledge and I am not sure how much I should go into that, but I guess what I am trying to say is that they will be trained in alchemy, in Indian sorcery, Druidism, Enochian magik, Gnosticism, Hermetic magik, cabbalism, Plato, Sufism - they will know all the different branches of occult systems.

Wayne Morris:

How do they use that information? Do they incorporate elements of all of those occult belief systems into their own?

Fritz Springmeier:

It all ties in together. The idea is to amass occult power to yourself and that's the reason why the Collins family was brought into the top 13 bloodlines. Of course the Merovingian Dynasty had a lot of magik power and a lot of political power, but the Collins family which was Scottish had extremely powerful occult powers so it was brought in to be one of the top occult lines because they were such powerful black magicians. Cabbalism and the 26 path workings - this is all very important in the work that they do, and it all ties in with the mind control too. But most of the therapists out there are secular or approach it from the secular angle, and as they deal with these mind control victims' programming, they don't touch on the spiritual aspect. What I am trying to say is that their religious beliefs can't be separated from the mind control. It is an integral part of that.

Wayne Morris:

Do the Illuminati worship a single being such as Lucifer?

Fritz Springmeier:

You've got different levels in which people operate within the Illuminati. There is the anarchy level which is your common witchcraft coven, and then you've got your hierarchy level. On the anarchy level there are thousands and thousands of covens. I have listed the addresses and names of hundreds of these in one of my books. These covens are very eclectic. They can have their own traditions, their own rituals. There is a wide variety of practices on the anarchy level ... that's what it looks like, is total anarchy. One doesn't see any connection.

Above that is your hierarchy level where you would have Asmodeus, your Grand Masters, and Mothers of Darkness, Grandmothers, Granddaughters. If you are a programmed multiple, you can function at many different levels. You can have one personality in this coven, and another personality in that coven and this personality that is in the Masonic Lodge, and another in this hierarchy ceremony, another participating in another Satanic ritual. It is very broken up. One of the reasons why it is not easy to answer your question is basically everything we understood about human behaviour and how to gauge or judge people is obsolete. The mind control, by creating programmed multiple personalities, has made all of our ways of judging people obsolete.

Within the Illuminati the supreme goal is to balance their good deeds with their bad deeds, they are dualists. They are Luciferians at the highest level. That's why your greatest philanthropist will very often be your highest ranking satanist. What they are trying to do with their philanthropy is self serving when you actually look at it. It's not as generous as it appears. They are trying to do good deeds and balance those with their bad deeds, they believe in balance in their religion. It's a gnostic luciferianism.

Wayne Morris:

I think it might be difficult for the people listening to understand how somebody could be in public doing good deeds and having a good public image, and at the same time having this very dark side. I don't know if you have read the recent Judith Spencer book, "Satan's High Priest". It really illustrates how that works very clearly. It's a true story about one particular satanic cult, a high priest, and his rise to that.

Fritz Springmeier:

No I haven't read the book, but I am glad that you brought that out to the listeners. The way that someone can begin to see the Illuminati is to start looking at how these people are above the wars and the rest of what we have to suffer. For instance Pierre Samuel Dupont, during the French Revolution, all kinds of people around Pierre lost their heads and yet, for some strange reason, Samuel Dupont managed to "keep his head" when so many hundreds of people were losing theirs to the guillotine. One person who was influential in protecting him was Necker's daughter, Madame Germaine Destael. She ran a cat-house, but anyway she was intimate friends with St. Simon and St. Simon's disciples were saying at that point in time in the early 1800's that the target date for the New World Order would be the year 2000.

Another example in history, and I brought this out in the Top 13 Illuminati Bloodlines book, is when the U.S. went to war right after Pearl Harbor, within a few days, President Roosevelt came out with a Presidential Decree which was a semi-secret amendment to the Trading with the Enemy Act, and it made it legal for certain people to trade with the enemy, if they were given permission by the American Secretary of the Treasury who at that time was Hans Morgenthale. I copied the paper work out of the Federal Code of Regulations. They actually have this Presidential Decree where if he wanted to exempt somebody, he could allow them to trade with the enemy. Who were the people that were given that privilege? Rockefellers and Onassis, both of them Illuminati kingpins. During WWII every ship that was a Greek merchant ship was sunk during the War by one side or the other. Something happened and essentially all of the Greek shippers lost their vessels. There was one Greek shipper, Aristotle Onassis, who didn't lose a single ship and his vessels sailed through all the war zones. None of the Allies or the Axis powers ever attacked his ships. For something like that to happen, you have to have full collaboration at the highest level. You see these kinds of things going like - Pierre Samuel Dupont, Aristotle Onassis. Then you are looking at somebody who is Illuminati. They sit above all these conflicts that they create for all the common people.

Wayne Morris:

This way of bypassing trading with the enemy regulations, how has this been utilized with regard to WWII or the Bolshevik revolution for that matter?

Fritz Springmeier:

In fact there is an entire book out - I think the title is "Trading with the Enemy", it came out in 1983 and answers your question. Rockefeller Standard Oil shipped gas and oil to Spain which then piped it directly to the Nazis. The Allies knew that Rockefeller was supplying the Germans. That prolonged the War a couple of year. But you don't hear about this by establishment historians. There was a lot of important trading during WWII was necessary to sustain the Nazi war machine.

And you mentioned the Bolshevik revolution. Again you will see there was a lot of finances sent from, as you are probably well aware and some listeners are aware, from Kuhn Laib (sp) and Company and some of these other llumaniti people, and that money was used by the Bolsheviks to finance the revolution. There were a lot of other agreements made at that time and things done to help them out. There is a lot going on behind the scenes.

Wayne Morris:

It seems like they are promoting a strategy of tension where they are funding both sides and basically profiting from the resultant conflicts that they are fomenting.

Fritz Springmeier:

One could go on and on. For instance Heinrich Mueller who was head of the Gestapo - you will notice that at one point he took an old Jewish family and he himself had to personally carry their suitcases to his own car and when he got them to the Swiss border, he carried their suitcases. The Swiss bodyguards by the way, were laughing seeing the head of Gestapo helping an old Jewish family escape Nazi Germany. When the listener out there starts seeing these kinds of things, now that you have heard me talk, you can begin to realize that there is a hidden level out there, way beyond what the common person is allowed to see at that Illuminati level. These are the people who are collaborating behind the scenes where you have Catholics and Protestants and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon leaders - you think these people are at each other's throats - but they are key Illuminati people who are secretly collaborating.

Wayne Morris:

In talking about the Illuminati, I think a number of people may have difficulty believing that there is a Unified Liberal Conspiracy to control the world. Even myself, up until recently, until I started researching into the mind control, I thought the Illuminati was a fictitious group. In doing your research about the Illuminati, what were some of your other sources of information besides the people on the inside that had escaped?

Fritz Springmeier:

My sources, besides my eye witnesses, were interviewing a number of honest law enforcement and private investigators - in fact some of these people are still ongoing friends of mine. Over the years I have studied thousands of books, and thousands of documents which has meant going to special libraries, such as the Genealogical Library at Salt Lake City. I have interviewed and worked with many therapists and I have taken off and travelled to sites where programming is done, where rituals are done, where crimes have been committed. For instance in Washington state, a number of hours from here, there is a full scale replica of Stonehenge. Below this replica of Stonehenge which sits on a hill, is a cemetery a number of feet away and Illuminati rituals are done at that cemetery. That's an example of a place that I have gone and looked at for myself.

I need to bring in another concept here that is important to research. It's not all simply just getting a lot of interviews and the facts because the raw facts aren't going to do it. When I was in college and I was taking counselling, the psychologist who was teaching the class gave some excellent advice. He said, "when you are listening to people or examining a situation, don't look at the details but look at the process. The details may throw you for a loop because people will lie, they will give contradictory information. Look at the process." That's a very good principle. What I have been doing is analyzing a lot of raw data, raw facts and interview information, and I have been putting together a coherent puzzle. That means you have to overlook a lot of disinformation.

Wayne Morris:

In the late seventies there was a certain amount of information about CIA mind control that came out to the public, and I would like to know what you think are the problems inherent in trying to prove the existence of mind control to a general audience through government documentation?

Fritz Springmeier:

The problems with trying to expose things through government documentation are one, the documentation has been destroyed or tampered with and to get the government involved in exposing these things, what you are basically doing is asking a bunch of criminals, that's what they are even thought they work in government positions, to expose themselves with paperwork. That's just not the way things work. When we think about the Nazis, they were trying to destroy all traces of their crimes. They tried, they didn't succeed. That gives me some hope that even though a great percentage of the proof of the mind control in terms of government documentation has been destroyed, I am still convinced that tons of documents still exist. But I think even better than those tons of documents are the living proof we have in the tens of thousands of identified living victims.

The other side to the problem of getting government documents is that then you have to have some way to broadcast that to the public at large and we have a controlled media, and unfortunately the media is very tight with the government. You can really question whether you would ever see our controlled media fully expose to the proper degree the people that need to be exposed.

Wayne Morris:

It seems highly unlikely that the mainstream media is going to be investigating this. It's more likely to be coming from independent investigation and independent publishers of this information.

Fritz Springmeier:

I would love to see the places where the records are kept broken into and these records exposed, but the only way I can see this happening would be if there was a revolution on the magnitude of what happened in Eastern Europe where Stasi records and things like this were exposed to the light of day.

Wayne Morris:

Do you think a government investigation into the mind control experiments, similar to what has happened with the Tuskegee syphilis and the radiation experiments would actually bring out information?

Fritz Springmeier:

I believe it would bring out information. That's true. However, for the government to investigate this is like asking the fox how much of a threat he is to chickens. The fox is going to tell us something, enough to satisfy us, but I am real leery about giving the government another chance to push some ulterior agenda. The bottom line is that a government investigation is going to cost us more tax dollars, and I think people sometimes forget that every time they send their government scurrying around doing something that it comes out of their pocketbook.

Wayne Morris:

Do you think there is any benefit though, to society as a whole, in terms of having a government investigation going on, and having the government at least admit they did do these kinds of experiments? Is there any benefit to the people as a whole in trying to expose this?

Fritz Springmeier:

As a whole? The way you ask your question is going to reflect the way I answer. No, it will not. The reason why I say this is that earlier on the US Congress had Rockefeller investigate the CIA. Rockefeller investigate the CIA!?! (Laughs) Of course his investigating committee came up with abuses, they have got to find something wrong, but the thing of it is that it makes Rockefeller look like a good fellow. "Oh look he's a crusader who is trying to expose the bad guys." They always throw in an ulterior agenda. If they are going to do something against themselves, they use it as another opportunity to work on some other agenda. If they expose A, B and C about mind control, then they are probably doing it in a way so they are misdirecting people's attention from their latest technology through an older model that they have discontinued, or something like that. They are going to work in some ulterior agenda that when it's all said and done, it has actually done a disservice.

Wayne Morris:

How do you think the information about mind control has been kept from public attention for so long?

Fritz Springmeier:

As we mentioned just a little bit earlier, we have a controlled media and in a number of my publications I have gone into detail and showed who is in control of the media, and how these people are Illuminati members or participating in their Illuminati fronts. I document how the Rockefellers, and the Rothschilds and the William Randolph Hearsts - Illuminati kingpins - control the media. I think it's appropriate a couple of anecdotes.

I was visiting one day with a Christian minister and he was asking me what I did since I worked full time exposing the mind control and helping victims of mind control, and exposing the New World Order's agenda. I was honest with him, and told him that and in the course of doing that I mentioned something about the controlled media and boy he hit the roof. He went ballistic on me because just prior to becoming a minister he had been an ABC reporter. He said, "there is no control over the media! I was allowed to write and have any stories that I wanted!" I said, "whoa, slow down, let me ask you some questions." When you were hired, your superior hired you and kept you on because he liked the way you thought and the way you wrote ... and likewise his superior liked the way he thought and the way he wrote ... and on and on down the line. If anybody had written or thought in ways that weren't the approved ways of thinking and writing you would have gotten in trouble, wouldn't you. He said "yes." I said, that's it ... when I work with victims of mind control they can't see that they are under programming. As long as they do exactly what the programming asks them to do, they don't know that they are in programming. The only time that they know that there is any programming there is if they step out and act against it. If you are running with the wind behind your back or if you are in a stream and you are floating down the stream, you don't notice the current. But when you try to swim upstream is when you really notice the power of the current. So if you as a reporter step out of what their expectations are, that's when you get clobbered and you realize there is a lot of heavy force behind going against the direction the way they want to go in. He said, "you're right." I said if you had written an article that had been contrary to the way your boss thought, you would have been in trouble, wouldn't you? He said, "yes, you are right, I see your point."

That's my point. People don't notice the control until you start bucking against that control and then you are going to find out how much control there is over our entire society.

Wayne Morris:

It seems that control in the newsrooms is almost at an unspoken level, and often for a lot of reporters it's an economic motivation as well. The stories that their editors do get accepted, the stories the editors don't like don't get accepted and the reporters don't get paid for it. They very quickly appreciate what their editors are going to accept and print.

Fritz Springmeier:

Exactly.

Wayne Morris:

I would like to talk about the mind control that the Illuminati have used and the techniques therein. What is your understanding of the forms of mind control they have used?

Fritz Springmeier:

The phrase that I like to use is "Total Mind Control" because it totally controls the person - body, soul and spirit. And the common person out there has never really imagined that something so all-encompassing or so horrendous or so totally powerful even exists. The type of mind control the Illuminati use - I think some people think "oh, mind control - television - yeah - subliminals." No. I am talking about something that is 1000 or 10,000 times more powerful. This mind control is totally undetectable and it totally controls the person and it uses every known technique of controlling a person wrapped up in a sophisticated group package. That's one of the important things that a lot of people have not emphasized - that it's not one technique, but what makes this total mind control of the Illuminati so powerful is that it's a sophisticated group package incorporating all of the known techniques of control. All of these methods have been carefully interwoven. When you listen to someone from an intelligence agency, occasionally they have talked similar to this, where they will say, "we tried such and such a technique but it only worked in 70% of the cases so we couldn't use it ... and we tried this technique and it only worked part of the time." But what they are not telling you is that if you take a method that works only 70% of the time and match that to another technique that works 60% of the time, and another technique that works 50% of the time and you have 100 techniques wrapped up together like that, you make a package deal that totally locks the victim in to the control.

Wayne Morris:

Can you talk about some of these techniques individually and how they were used as a group package?

Fritz Springmeier:

When I started out to describe to people what was going on, I had files and files. I had about 150 files of different techniques. I was thinking to myself, well I can't talk about 150 techniques, that's too overwhelming for people. I thought and realize that all of these techniques broke down into 12 sciences. One of the sciences is the science of trauma and torture. Others is how to use applied drugs to control a person; their ability to use mental states such as hypnosis, dissociation, the trance states; their skill at deceiving people and deceiving the victim themselves. One needs to understand that the victims of the Illuminati mind control do not even know themselves that they are under control. So there is a lot of skill in using fiction and deceit and fronts and covers. There is a science of using spiritual things to control a person. In fact actually that is perhaps one of the major, if not 'the major' method of controlling a person.

There is a science of using spiritual things to control a person. In fact actually that is perhaps one of the major, if not the major method of controlling a person. One of the things that's not political popular today for people today in science to admit is that mankind has a spiritual side to them, but humans do have a spiritual side to them and the Illuminati understand how to spiritually control someone. Their understanding of that has boggled my mind. They have only allowed the common people including the Christian people - the crumbs so to speak - even our ministers have only been given the crumbs on how to develop a person spiritually.

Wayne Morris:

And how do you feel they have developed this and gained this knowledge?

Fritz Springmeier:

A lot of this began back in the Sleep Temples of the Egyptians. We go back to your Egyptian priesthood and the Mystery religions - they were already learning at that time how to use electric shock - they used electric eels and other things to electrically shock people. They had already started to learn the use of drugs and herbs to create altered states and to control people. These were secrets though that were very closely guarded by these Illuminati families and their Mystery religion priesthood. But they continued to develop these over the centuries. Another example of a closely guarded secret was the ability to do cranial manipulation. During the Middle Ages and even centuries prior to that, the oligarchical families that controlled the common people had specialists that did torture for the kings, and they kept their secrets about torturing to themselves. One of the things they developed was the ability to do cranial manipulation. You have to be very careful when you start moving the bones of the skull. A lot of people don't realize that the skull is not a solid bone, but it has sutures between the different parts of it, and you can do very subtle manipulations and move those skull bones. In fact today there is something called cranial osteopathy. These osteopaths are very skilled in using their fingers. That developed from the family of bone-setters who tied back into the occult who had learned the secret occult skills of manipulation.

Wayne Morris:

What has effect has this had in terms of the mind control - the cranial manipulation?

Fritz Springmeier:

Cranial manipulation has been kept an occult secret in occult bloodlines for centuries. And it can be used for good, to heal people. It can be used to change the way the face looks to improve the face, or it can be used for evil, to torture someone or to control their mind. By manipulating the skull you can actually change the way the person thinks to make them more dissociative, or more compliant, or develop their thinking in other ways.

Wayne Morris:

Can you explain how they would start using these techniques, and generally at what age they would start?

Fritz Springmeier:

When a child is conceived, a lot of them - their very birth has been an idea from the start. Somebody who is in the Illuminati conceiving a child in an occult ritual with a woman. It gets very involved as to how they hide their lineages. Let's put it this way. Not everybody born to mothers are actually the biological children of that mother. There is a lot of switching done at hospitals and so forth. The child's birth has been planned. While the child is in the fetus, they already begin certain things to test the fetus' mental abilities and to traumatize that fetus so it will be more dissociated.

Wayne Morris:

How would they do that?

Fritz Springmeier:

A fetus does not like to be poked, does not like substances that taste bad. If a mother eats a lot of sugar they have shown by watching the fetus that these unborn children like the taste of sugar as it diffuses into what the child is getting from the mother. So if you combine a lot of these things that are horrific. If you have a lot of loud noises - and the father is screaming at the mother and throwing her around and abusing the mother, making the mother very upset. Then you've got loud music, rock and roll, or screaming or something. You have also given the mother something to eat that tasted really bad to the fetus and you can do a number of things that are going to hit that little unborn child at the same time. It's going to be overwhelmed, and it's going to develop its ability to dissociate.

Wayne Morris:

To your awareness, has electricity been used in this regard?

Fritz Springmeier:

Not so much in the traumatization of the fetus. They use that after the child is born. They oftentimes will have a premature birth. It happens in many different ways, but one of the methods they like to use is to have a premature birth because then the child can be traumatized naturally. There are a whole bunch of natural traumas that go along with being premature. Your skin is very sensitive, you get catheters up your behind, and so forth. They want the traumatization to begin very early on because they want somebody who can trance out and dissociate from the pain. You are probably familiar with the Indian fakirs - the holy men in Indian who can walk on coals and stick pins in themselves and sleep on beds of nails. How does it happen? Because they are able to dissociate and go into a trance state, an altered state. The Illuminati want to create individuals who are able to dissociate very well, because that is part of the requirement to have the ability to have a multiple personality.

Wayne Morris:

And that is the purpose of the traumatization - is to create that dissociation?

Fritz Springmeier:

That's one of the purposes.

Wayne Morris:

What is the importance of dissociation within the total mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:

It's extremely important. You will hear a lot in recent times about electronic mind control, and that's being used to divert people away from the more important issue of multiple personality disorder or DID. The ability to create multiple personalities that are programmed is extremely important. It's why they have the ability to be secret, it's why they are able to do so much in secret. The electronic mind control - throwing mental ideas into somebody's brain which are foreign is not that much of a threat. I have worked with quite a few victims of electronic mind control and the majority, if not all of them, are able to recognize that something is being beamed into their heads that is foreign. But when you are dissociated and you have amnesia between yourself and other parts of your mind, you don't know what you yourself in your entirety are all about. For instance I had a Christian minister who spent some time trying to deprogram - he has come and visited here to work on his programming. Here you have a Christian minister who, horrors of horrors, discovers that he has a dissociated part of his mind which has been functioning within the Illuminati and these other parts of his mind are satanic. Imagine being a man of God and finding out that you have parts of yourself that sacrifice people ... (laughs). That's why this ability to dissociate into multiple personalities is such a dangerous ability.

Wayne Morris:

Maybe you can talk about the nature of dissociation and how that is used for controlling somebody and also, as you mentioned, being not aware of the different identities that are being used for other purposes ...

Fritz Springmeier:

People are familiar with dissociation and how the mind has the ability to function on several tracks. For instance, if you are at a party and engrossed in a conversation with somebody and you are focused on what they are saying, and all of a sudden somebody across the room says your name, and your mind immediately switches and goes "oh they are calling me over there", well that's one evidence, and there are other ways to realize that the mind is not one monolithic entity but it is broken up into components. While you were engaged in that conversation with somebody, there was one part of your mind which was still listening to other things. It was a dissociated part of the conscious mind; in other words, it was dissociated from the conscious. You weren't conscious of that part of your mind that was listening to the rest of the conversation but it was.

Hypnosis, trance and dissociation are just different aspects of the same thing. The Illuminati have learned over the centuries how to put people in different mental states and the information is learned in the different states. To access that information best, you need to go back to that particular state. People realize what I am saying because when you get into a particular situation that's reminiscent of a previous experience, that's when your memory is best triggered. They go a lot further than just using natural dissociation. They have learned how to create amnesia walls within the mind and basically what they are doing to the mind is the same as what we do to computers. In order to make computers functional they had to figure out some way to section off part of the computer's memory so the user could not access that memory. It had to nest that memory. You will notice that when you reboot your computer, the computer reboots itself with memory that you weren't able to access. That memory was dissociated - in human terms I guess you could say there is an amnesia wall there.

They know how to build walls in the mind to mentally section off the mind - and they do this through trauma. If you get a severe enough trauma what the mind will do in order to continue functioning is dissociate that trauma with an amnesia wall. Let's say you were in war and your best friend had just gotten blown to smithereens by artillery ... his guts are lying out. Your mind may build amnesia walls around this event and you may not be able to remember it. So the worse the trauma, the better the amnesia wall.

The Illuminati take a small child about two years old, and they begin traumatizing it with the worst traumas that are imaginable so that they can create these amnesia walls. They find these dissociated pieces of the mind which are just like in a sense floppy disks, then they put in their programming to the dissociated parts of the mind as to what they want that part to become. Some of these parts they make into personalities and they create MPD, DID and then while they are creating these multiple personalities, they are programming them to be exactly what they want them to be.

Wayne Morris:

Before we get into what kinds of things they are used for, maybe we can just go back and talk about how a person is conditioned to be a total mind control slave, and pick it up when the child is born. What happens there in terms of the conditioning.

Fritz Springmeier:

The programmers like to say "this child is a piece of clay", and they view themselves as the potter's wheel, of course. They are very skilled in knowing how to take a child and work with that child's mind to create what they want. We could talk all day about this. One of the aspects we haven't gotten into yet is their ability to go in and identify - they use EEG's - backtracking and stepping outside of the Illuminati for a second ... You've got researchers like Hans Eisneck, who happened to have been born in Germany and other researchers too who studied how your average _______ potentials - these are brainwaves - can be monitored and can be used to see what type of thinking that brain is capable of. You can use EEG's to determine personality and IQ. They have correlated their ability to study the human brain with EEG's to John Gittinger's PAS tests. When a child is born they begin testing its brain to see what is this person's personality, what type of thinking is this person capable of, what type of career should be plan out for this person. So they take the natural bent of the mind, the natural capabilities of the mind and they work with that. Likewise when they are doing the traumatization and they are splitting the mind, they work with the child's creativity and what those pieces of the mind think.

Wayne Morris:

Typically at what age do these tests start - the EEG's and the Personality Assessment Surveys ...

Fritz Springmeier:

They do some of it while the child is still a fetus, and after its born they start neonatal behavioral assessment skills, the Bailey Scales and other tests, and within a short time, perhaps by 18 months, they will be doing EEG's and determining what they want to do. Once they determine what kind of life they want to structure for this person, they begin the mind control to structure the person for that career. This is why people like myself who have a natural intelligence that has never been connected to any of these bloodlines, we have such a hard time out there in the competition because the Illuminati can take a particular child and manipulate things from behind the scenes and open all the right doors for this person, and they can get them the grants and the schooling and everything they need and adding impetus to this person's career is the mind control that is steering them in that direction too. The end product is you end up with somebody who is an engineer or a lawyer or a politician who is very highly qualified for what they are doing.

Wayne Morris:

Once they have controlled somebody, what kinds of things would they be used to do for the Illuminati?

Fritz Springmeier:

This has not been brought out very well by other people and maybe it's just simply because they are not aware of it, but the mind control is not just to create somebody who is a sexual slave, but it's to infiltrate and control society across the board. Understand that if you are going to control something like establishment medicine - you have to have your people in key positions because the weakest link the chain is going to break. You can't have any weak links. They salt their people throughout society in general, from the gutter to the castles. An example of one group of people that they have created for modern society are stalkers. In my recent book, Deeper Insights Into the Illuminati Formula, I go into how they create stalkers and why they create stalkers.

Let's say you are trying to control medicine because the establishment medical system brings them in lots of money and the medical establishment is very powerful, you have to have control of the entire spectrum of things - the hospitals, what kind of health care is going to be available, the type of training these doctors are going to get, they have created secret strike forces like the CCHI and the NCHF that keep people in line. All of this requires mind control slaves being salted in throughout the entire system. If you have one weak link - for instance if you have one person who is practising alternative medicine and you don't control the judicial system - you are not going to be able to convict, eg. this homeopathic doctor if you don't control the judicial system. You have to have this vast secret apparatus, and until people understand the mind control, they can't understand how there could possibly be the type of control that they have.

Wayne Morris:

In order to understand how they are able to control these people that they have put in key positions in society, we do have to talk more about the techniques of mind control, and maybe we can go into that now, of how they are able to effect control over these people. For example, the trauma.

Fritz Springmeier:

The trauma would be used for a whole number of reasons, but at the very basic level when you traumatize somebody to the point where they almost die, or actually to be more specific they actually do "kill" these people but they know exactly how many seconds they can allow them to be killed and still bring them back to life. They manipulate near-death experiences, they have that down to a science. That was the major reason that you had the major concentration camp experiments by Mengele where people were tortured. He belonged to an Illuminati bloodline and was doing Illuminati research for mind control purposes, he did a lot of research on twins. They found out exactly how much trauma you could give different people before you killed them. What that trauma does is it puts the brain back into a survival mode and now I have to get into explaining that the popular concept of the brain being one monolithic brain is real deceptive.

It has been kept very secret but the human brain is actually seven brains. The first brain of the human mind - the medullah and the pons - is called the Reptilian Brain because it thinks like a reptilian. If you are always traumatizing a person, you keep them in their reptilian thinking or their survival based thinking. Survival based thinking has certain characteristics. At the very basic level, the trauma can be used to keep somebody within their survival based thinking. It also creates fear and there is a whole series that spiritually happen to a person when they get caught up in fear.

If you think in terms of blackmail, the listener may remember when he was a child and somebody grabbed your arm and twisted it and said "say uncle" and of course your arm hurt, and you gave in. That's a very simple type of mind control. The trauma and the torture can be used in a very simple way - if you don't comply it is going to hurt. Men who are slaves are electroshocked in their genitals. It is very painful. That's a very simple way of bringing someone in line. Then of course there are ways the trauma is used to split the mind, fracture them into thousands of pieces, create multiple personality disorder. That's one of the techniques.

Wayne Morris:

Just to stay on the topic of trauma, what is the importance of maintaining that trauma in terms of keeping the conditioning intact and keeping the state of dissociation intact?

Fritz Springmeier:

They want to maintain a high level of trance and dissociative behaviour in the victim, so they like to continue traumatizing the person. As I brought out earlier, there is more involved than just keeping the dissociative level high. Your also trying to maintain the person to stay in the reptilian, survival based thinking; trying to keep them having a spirit of fear controlling their lives, so they don't slack off. They secretly train the parents of the children who are being programmed on how to abuse their children so they keep their children very dissociative. Not only that, if the children are going to some established religious institute, eg. Catholic church, Episcopalian church, their priests, their clergymen have been trained in how to abuse the children. This is why you have such a big modern day problem within the Catholic church. So many of the priests abusing children and the lawsuits brought against this church, and some people have said they think it is going to financially bankrupt the church - the reason why so much of this is going on is for purposes of mind control.

Wayne Morris:

Have these priests and clergymen been coerced to participate in this, or are they part of these Illuminati families? What is their role?

Fritz Springmeier:

There are a lot of different reasons why someone is a pedophile. One of the problems within the Catholic church is that there haven't been normal outlets for sexual activity provided for priests and nuns, and then they are given these subversive ways to release their sexuality. Some of them are actually secret satanists and this is part of the reward they receive from a secret coven. There are various reasons as to why - some just go along because that's what everybody else is doing and it is allowed until people put their foot down and say we are not going to tolerate this. I can talk about a number of cases where people did put their foot down and say we are not going to tolerate this abuse of our child by the clergy, and the hierarchy that should have penalized this person simply promoted them and sent them to some other part of the country. Why they do it? God knows why each person has become an abuser.

Wayne Morris:

Can you explain how the dissociation has been used in terms of programming and the structure of that programming?

Fritz Springmeier:

The victim of the mind control has had their mind split into many personalities, actually far more personalities than what the people in the therapeutic community generally realize. Cisco who I brought out of the Illuminati has very standard programming in many ways, although she has unique features to her system of personalities. She had a very standard grid of 13x13x13 alter personalities. Each one of those personalities has been given a separate history, separate personality which has its own likes and dislikes. What they did was turn what was one person into a whole city of people and the only way the mind of the slave can function is if it relies upon the master to give it stability. Imagine if your mind was a whole series of competing persons, each with their own ideas, likes, dislikes. The only way to bring some order out of the chaos would be to have some controlling entity ordering that chaos. Some of the slaves have reached the point of becoming aware that they are multiples and on the deeper levels they realize that they need the mind control for their minds not to break down into total craziness. Another way of looking at it is - what the Illuminati are doing is creating controlled insanity for these victims of the mind control to endure the horrific trauma that's given to them, they have to isolate their memories of that trauma and the parts of the mind that have to pick up some of that trauma - some of those parts, in essence, I hate to use the word "crazy", but they are taking the garbage that's happening and the mind is shuffling and isolating it. If those walls of dissociation break down, then the other parts of the mind are going to have to deal with a lot of garbage.

Wayne Morris:

Why do you think they needed so many identities to be in place?

Fritz Springmeier:

If you are going to invest the time to create a robot, you are going to incorporate as many capabilities as possible and you want to compartmentalize so everything is secret. One of the reasons why intelligence agencies function so well - eg. CIA - is that they compartmentalize everything. You only "know" on a regional basis. They do the same with these people's minds. A slave may function on many different levels. He's got his front - they create the best front possible - his or her everyday life - but then they may want to use that person for drug smuggling, money laundering, carrying messages, performing satanic rituals, producing porn movies, assassinating somebody, spying on somebody - and then you've got internal jobs too. Going back to what I said earlier, remembering how the mind has been fractured into many dissociated pieces, and essentially a whole city of people has been made out of those pieces. In order for that city of people to function, you have to have different jobs. You will have some of the older personalities taking care of baby personalities internally in the person's mind - you have functions - gatekeepers, hierarchy alters that are controlling other alters - a hierarchy of personalities. That's a whole science in itself - how to structure dissociated parts of the mind.

Wayne Morris:

You mentioned the one structure, 13x13x13 grid. Are there other structures used that you are aware of?

Fritz Springmeier:

There are many different structures. It all depends on the whim and fancy of the programmer as he shatters the victim's mind, he can reassemble that mind however he wants to. He can use a sphere - they create systems within systems too. A common system within a system is the cabalistic tree of life.

Wayne Morris:

Do you see similarities in the survivors that you have been working with in terms of the structures?

Fritz Springmeier:

Oh yes. That's one of the things - you can have a therapist in one state, and they will not have know anything about MPD or DID and they will start working with the victim and call another therapist for help and taking notes. The victim will say, "I drew these pictures. I don't know what they mean." "I am fascinated with Star Trek (or the Wizard of Oz) (Mickey Mouse)". The therapist will call another therapist and ask what they make of this. If this other therapist is experienced, they may say "oh hey - I've got somebody who is just like that." All across the country, there are therapists and then people like myself who is a minister working with these people who are running into the same patterns time and time again, the same structures. Like I was saying, working with people who were in the Illuminati, working with people that did the programming itself, is really helping my learning curve too in terms of the structures that are built in.

Another common structure you will see is a lot of mirror imaging, that's a more of a technique than a structure.

Wayne Morris:

What do you mean by that? The mirroring of an alter?

Fritz Springmeier:

Mirroring of all kinds of things. That's part of the technique of deceit.

Wayne Morris:

That's the purpose of using this mirroring, for example if a therapist came across one alter, dealt with, there may have been a mirror of that ...

Fritz Springmeier:

A lot of the therapists think they are dealing with a particular personality but they are dealing with its mirror image. The systems are programmed, created so that if somebody starts working with them there are all these defensive mechanisms that are triggered. One of the defensive mechanisms is to have mirror image alters take the place of who the therapist is trying to work with. So the therapist thinks they have done something but they have actually just played games. Mirror images of things within the programming itself so that when one particular personality tries to work on their mind's programming, the mind is so confusing about what they still internally - that they can't figure out their own mind.

The best manager is somebody who doesn't have to spend a lot of time giving instructions to a person. If you are a slave master and you have to be constantly telling that slave what to do, and constantly correcting it, and making sure it's doing its job, you become a slave to the slave.

What you want to do is create a human robot which will be self-directed and self-correcting so they create hierarchies of alters within the person and one of the things they do is create alter personalities within the person's mind who think they are the programmer themself.

So, Ewen Cameron who was a programmer - his victim would have personalities within them that would think they are Ewen Cameron. Therefore they would carry out the abuse of other personalities as they would perceive Ewen Cameron would do it. That's one use of mirrors. Another use of mirrors is if you are teaming two slaves together, let's say you and are teamed. I would have personalities in me that think they are you and you would have personalities created in you that think they are me and it would further the binding process.

Wayne Morris:

Generally speaking, with people who have this kind of mind control, how many personalities are you talking about?

Fritz Springmeier:

A lot. Cisco has 30,000 standard alters and then there are lots of other dissociated pieces too. That would not be abnormal. The small part of the therapeutic community that's trying to address DID generally work with a few front personalities. There are number of books out there written by people with MPD where the therapist came in and worked with five or six front personalities. The Illuminati step back and allow them to integrate some front personalities and the person is told by the therapist "you are now integrated, you're fine" and they left therapy, and everybody is happy. The victim thinks they are free of their MPD, the therapist has made a lot of money and gotten famous over some book they have written, and the Illuminati is happy because these are just front alters that have been stabilized. The system of alters are far more complex than people realize.

Wayne Morris:

What are the dangers involved in dealing with therapy with a mind control victim, particularly when a therapist may be unaware of the techniques and structures of mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:

I have to caution people that some of the best minds of the 20th century - we have hundreds, if not thousands, of the best minds who have spent many, many years figuring out how to build these mechanisms into the mind slaves to protect the programming. In a sense what it is like - imagine you are going in to try and hack a computer - imagine a system that is set up so that if someone is not an approved user comes into the room and looks at the computer, the computer shuts down, the computer explodes. That's really what you are looking at in trying to work with a mind control victim - they have a lot of suicide programming so that if the front alters, the personalities that hold the body day in and day out - if they were ever to find out they were in mind control, or that they were a multiple personality, they would commit suicide. You have all kinds of defensive programs. Not only is the computer programmed to explode if you walk into the room, but if you touch the keyboard as an unauthorized user, again the computer is programmed to explode. Every step of the way there are backup programs to deceive, to destroy. It is not easy. It is something the novice does not want to get into. It's something that takes a lot of time and patience and skill, and a lot of love for the victims too. One has to really abhor what is going on to have the motivation that it takes to work with such a complex problem.

Wayne Morris:

What would you recommend for therapists wanting to know more about how this is done, and how they can help heal the victims?

Fritz Springmeier:

I strongly recommend our three books - I co-authored these 3 books with Cisco Wheeler. The one I already mentioned, "The Illuminati Formula Used to Create a Total Mind Controlled Slave". The sequel to that which is 620 pages, "Deeper Insights into the Illuminati Formula", part 1 is how the control comes about and part 2 is how the help comes about. We've got a lot of good information in there laying the foundation as to what's happened, and how to begin to unravel what has happened.

Wayne Morris:

In terms of your own work, how much success have you had in working with victims of mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:

The problem that the mind control presents is overwhelming, and there are countless therapeutic issues, so there is no end to the different issues that can be worked on. Cisco and I have freely given of our time to help any victim of mind control in whatever way we could. The degree of therapeutic success depends on a number of things. One, it depends upon the situation the victim puts themselves in. If they are willing to extract themselves from their everyday life and go somewhere where it is safe, they are going to do a lot more - work more therapeutic issues, because the mind of a mind controlled slave is not going to let its guard down as long as it's not safe. This gets back into understanding how the reptilian mind and the survival based thinking can override other areas of the mind. When you become deathly frightened for your life, your survival instincts take precedence over the other parts of your brain. If you have been traumatized your entire life, your survival based thinking is your primary method of thinking and it doesn't take much to throw you into the fear based survival based thinking. So the first criteria for doing successful work with a mind control victim is to get them someplace safe. You could say that 99.9% of the victims of mind control have never been given that. Therapists do not set things up for survivors or victims of mind control to be in any safe situation. When I say safe, I mean they have to be safe 24 hours a day.

Cisco and I have been able to work with victims to the degree the situation allowed. There is no end to the work we could do if the right set-up presented itself. This is why I was hoping to create a deprogramming centre. There was a man who was CIA who was very horrified at what the government intelligence agencies had been doing to people, and I have a friend whom this CIA man knew who also works at providing therapy for mind control victims. This CIA man wrote into his will to give a number of millions of dollars to my clients for the purpose of doing therapy work with mind control victims. And then my friend in turn was going to give me a couple of million dollars so I could start a deprogramming centre. This man's will when he died, was in the Oklahoma Federal Building, and the only copy of the will that we know about was in there. So I was rather upset when the building exploded, because that short-circuited our plans to build a couple of deprogramming centres. Short of building some place that is safe and that is staffed with competent people, it is extremely difficult to accomplish much.

Even when I have accomplished positive therapy with a victim, all that it takes for the other side to do is physically grab them and reprogram them. This is what has happened for me over the past years in terms of trying to help victims, and as a warning to the public and the therapeutic community at large, at this point not a whole lot has really been accomplished to thwart the mind control.

Wayne Morris:

Now in the optimal situation, to what degree have you been able to free the victims of the control?

Fritz Springmeier:

Given the optimal situation where we have someone who is safe, we can take down the mind control. We can do some serious re-structuring and make some really serious headway in helping a person. We can do some significant spiritual work with them. There can be some integrating work begun. There are all kinds of things that can happen. On the flip side of it, is the work ever finished? I don't think it is, because the damage that has been done is so extensive, and you never know as a therapist that you have succeeded in finding every dissociated fragment of the mind. Remember there are thousands of fragments of the mind because the traumatization is so prolonged over so many years, and is so horrific, that you can never be sure that you have gotten all of the dissociated pieces, and each of those dissociated pieces is probably going to have programming attached to it.

Wayne Morris:

What is your sense of how many people have been affected by this?

Fritz Springmeier:

A very conservative estimate - I shouldn't even say estimate because I have computed it from about seven different angles - a conservative figure is 2 million Americans have been programmed with trauma based total mind control.

Wayne Morris:

And that's just in the USA?

Fritz Springmeier:

Yes.

Wayne Morris:

And is it your sense that this is going on world-wide?

Fritz Springmeier:

Oh indeed yes, it is. More with your primary political powers. You've got programming going on in Europe, Russia, the U.S.A. - those are your primary areas of programming but in other places too.

Wayne Morris:

I would like to talk about some of the other techniques now of mind control. How has electricity played a role?

Fritz Springmeier:

Electric shock has been a standard part of the abuse, and it serves as a form of trauma. And stun guns are a standard item to keep the slaves in line and also to erase their memories. They might use perhaps a 120,000 DC volt stun gun to erase and compartmentalize fragments, memories of a slave who has just been used. When you shock a person, it destroys the short-term memory. It fragments it, 24 hours either way of the event. They can also use the shock treatments like Ewen Cameron to splinter the mind so that's electro-shock. Elecricity has been used in terms of implements or devices that have been implanted into people and also used in equipment that will throw thoughts into a peron's mind. You have microwave towers going up vectoring in ELF waves into people's minds. So electricity is being used in a lot of high tech ways, or electromagnetic waves are being used in a lot of high techn ways ...

They have different machines - EDOM electronic dissolution of memory where they wipe out your memory; harmonic machines that are used which some of your speakers have probably talked about - these machines can be used for the deprogramming work too. Electricity is also used in the flip way in that since the human brain gives off frequencies, they go in and scan a person's personal frequencies they are giving off. There is a prime freq - which is the primary frequency a person gives off and that can be used to identify them from a distance. They know the different frequencies that the brain uses. Coming at it from a different angle, if you think of the brain when it creates a particular thought, it gives off particular frequencies. They simply created particular thoughts within a person and monitored electrical impulses along with that thought, fed that into computers. I am simplifying what they did - but basically that's what they have done to decode being able to read what their brain is thinking. If you monitor the frequencies that are being given off by a person, then you can monitor what their thoughts are. So not only can you throw particular thoughts into people's heads, but they can monitor their thoughts too.A lot of the monitoring and instilling of thoughts, etc. are being done with implants.

Wayne Morris:

Can we just go back to electroshock. You mentioned that it is used to erase memories perhaps of the identity of the people who are doing the programming. But don't they run the risk of erasing the programming itself? How do they deal with that?

Fritz Springmeier:

This gets back into understanding how the programming is put in, and the level at which it is put in. Remember we talked about dissociated states? The primary programming that is put in is put in at a comatose level. There are different levels that you can program somebody to - if you start out with an adult, for instance, the CIA's nomenclature is mind control Level 5. Somebody who has been given mind control to the 5th level generally has some cover story like for Roseanne Barr - she had an automobile accident apparently as a teenager. They take these people in and they are taken down to a comatose level where their bodies are comatose for quite a long period of time, and the programming is put in at an extremely deep level. At a level where your mind is regulating your heartbeat. The programming is put in and it is nested in at an extremely deep level. When they destroy short-term memory with electroshocking, that's not even coming close to the deep programs - that is just affecting the short-term memory.

Wayne Morris:

Have they deliberately regulated the amount of electricity in terms of achieving a desired effect?

Fritz Springmeier:

Oh yeah. Everything is extremely scientific. This is why they had to do a lot of the horrific testing during WWII in the concentration camps. You just don't traumatize a person indiscriminately or you will kill them. You have to know what you are doing. They have doctors and heart monitoring equipment. The fundamental programming is done in hospital settings, or hospital-type settings. That's why a lot of the VA hospitals here in the USA - actually all of the VA hospitals - have been used for programming. A lot of the other civilian hospitals have also had particular wards set up where they were able to do programming. They are monitoring heartbeat, they know just how far to push them. When they start going into a near-death experience they know exactly when they can electroshock them to bring them back to life, etc. It is very skilled. They have to be very skilled in the drugs they use, how and when they administer them, what they do when the person is under drugs. What they do is not haphazard.

Wayne Morris:

So a lot of experimentation has gone into refining these techniques?

Fritz Springmeier:

Yes. Exactly.

Wayne Morris:

Can you tell us if you know anything about the development of brain implant technology and that has been used for mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:

There are six different types of implants. Audio implants that are used to allow the victim to hear something. Body manipulation implants that are put in to manipulate the body in some way, perhaps to release a hormone or to keep them from getting pregnant or to torture them, or something like that. Then you have a visual holographic implant which will give a holographic image to the person. You have implants that are mimics or brain link implants that if I want to directly download something to the brain, those are very secret implants. The implants are not used across the board with all mind controlled slaves. There are select groups that are receiving the implants and like the mimics, implants are only going to a select group. Then you've got your torture and muscle stimulating implants. Then the one everybody hears about - the tracking and ID implants - that everybody is so concerned about. Those are the implants that were given to a lot of American soldiers in Desert Storm. They were told they needed implants so that the global positioning system could keep track of them so they wouldn't get lost in the desert.

Wayne Morris:

I am curious about the actual implants themselves in terms of how they are implanted and approximately the size through the development of the technology?

Fritz Springmeier:

The development has gotten really high tech. You have several types of development here that need to be brought out. One, that's called "nanobots" - nanotechnology which are tiny little robots that range from 10-1/1000 billionth of a meter. The word "nano" means billionth - we are talking extremely microscopic robots here that are able to replicate themselves. Molecular size robots. Possibly the listeners have heard of the Scanning Tunnelling microscope? There are different names for it, but it is a little device that can actually see a single atom, and actually pick up atoms and move them. That's used to develop these nanobots which are robots that can self replicate. You have fibre optics that have been developed and you will have some victims that if they get rid of their fibre optics - the fibre optic that is stuck into the victim often looks like a hair.

Wayne Morris:

What typically are these fibre optic implants used for?

Fritz Springmeier:

Good question. I wish I really knew the answer for that. Fibre optic glass will carry signals, so in broad I can say the implants are being used to transmit signals, I know that much. But I don't know all the ins and outs of what kinds of signals are being sent. I have one victim of mind control who had been sitting in a restaurant - it is sort of analgous to a blowgun where they have hit her with something that looks just like a little hair and the fibre optic filament embeds itself in her skin. While she is sitting there eating, they have shot this filament into her. Fortunately she noticed they had done this, and pulled it out. I had female victims who had fibre optics that was disguised as hair that were put on their bodies. I don't know the full role of the fibre optics but I know it is involved in communications. One of the more dangerous developments are your organic bioprocessors. These are molecular computers that are made up of DNA material. You've got DNA templates and you can also have carbon chains that are used. What they do is - with this biomaterial that is made into a mini-computer, they will link that to a virus and viruses oftentimes have a particular area of the body they like to migrate to. For instance a neurotropic virus will migrate to the nervous system or a dermatropic virus will migrate to the skin, pneuomtropic virus will go to the lungs. They attack their little organic viral processor to this virus. How do you get a virus into a person? There are a dozen different ways, it is easy to get a virus into a victim's/host's body. So once these viruses migrate to that area of the body they prefer, you've got a tiny little implant that is then doing whatever function it is programmed to do. These are extremely difficult to locate.

I have noticed in victims that have the virus implants that there will be a sort of central control implant a lot of times put in the bottom base of the neck. The central command implant will be receiving external signals and then will in turn monitor the body suit of implants. Some of the victims of these implants seem to have gotten some relief from being able to kill the viruses. There are some alternative medical methods that might be suggested to the victims that could take out these bio processors.

Wayne Morris:

For some of the larger implants, have victims been able to locate and remove these kinds of implants somehow?

Fritz Springmeier:

Yes. There have been a number of victims that have been identified - have been able to take xrays, have been able to get other types of scanning mechanisms. There were three victims of electronic mind control that managed to, as a group, get into an Anacoic Chamber and get results when their signals were pinpointed as to source. They had to smuggle the paperwork out from the lab in their bras because the lab technicians were afraid of getting into trouble. Different victims of electronic mind control have managed to get some proof or have actually pulled some of it out. There are some doctors that actually have some of the implants. There are a few clean surgeons that are willing to help victims. I might mention the word Syntel here ... that's an important word for people to be familiar with in understanding implants. Syntel is something that has been discussed by our government repeatedly in some of their conferences. You will hear the military in some of their semi-secret conferences discussing Syntel. That's short for synthetic telepathy which means sending to victims voices and thoughts - so these victims of Syntel are people who are receiving voices and thoughts electronically.

Wayne Morris:

That seems to be able to be used in a couple of different ways in terms of control, but also in terms of the situation with people claiming they are hearing voices who are often labelled schizophrenic or psychotic ... it seems to be a way of discrediting these people.

Fritz Springmeier:

Something that was developed and used during the space program which is called biomedical telemetry - these are transmitters and receivers located at the base of the skull which record the body functions and the brain waves, and send it back to some computer somewhere. In fact in working with victims of electronic mind control I can say with certainty that is what is being done is that there are computers that are programmed with artificial intelligence that are their handlers. Rather than having a human handler day in and out, three shifts of human handlers controlling the victim of electronic mind control, they have computers with A.I. Then if the victim does something that throws the computer, the computer will signal a human to come and get involved. It's been kind of interesting, the stories that victims have told me about how they outsmarted the computers that were trying to handle them.

Wayne Morris:

I would like to talk about, and you have mentioned the name, Josef Mengele. What role did Josef Mengele play in developing mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:

He is like the father of modern programming. Prior to Josef Mengele, the Illuminati had created MPD, but the training of those personalities had been non-scientific. Mengele worked a lot with twins, understanding trauma and how to use trauma. If somebody is about to die and they are rescued by their programmer, they trauma-bond with that programmer. He learned how to trauma-bond his victims to him. A lot of victims of mind control in Israel and other parts of the world still refer to him as "Papa", they love him. And if the programmer knows what he's doing, he can totally trauma-bond that victim to him to where they love the programmer.

Wayne Morris:

It's like the Stockholm Syndrome ...

Fritz Springmeier:

He was taking programming into the world of science. In January 1945, when it was very clear that the Nazis were going to lose, the Illuminati smuggled him out into the West where he continued doing programming. I have worked with a number of his mind control victims. One of his victims, a lady here in this area, was actually in a concentration camp with Mengele; as a child was experimented on and watched those horrors and had mind control done in the concentration camps. And then she was smuggled via the Ratline actually through your country, Canada, came through the Catholic Church collaborators, brought her through Quebec and then to Portland. And Josef Mengele continued his mind control here in the States.

Wayne Morris:

Was Mengele involved in mind control experiments previous to WWII?

Fritz Springmeier:

I don't believe so. He was in the Illuminati. His family is Illuminati, but I don't have any knowledge of him doing it prior to the War. Of course I don't know the whole story there. But there was some reason as to why he was chosen for the position that he received. There may be more to the story than I know.

Wayne Morris:

It appears that a lot of experimentation was done on the victims of the Holocaust. You have mentioned trauma experiments. What other kinds of experiments were done as they relate to mind control technology?

Fritz Springmeier:

One of the things that Mengele was doing, and his friend Ewen Cameron continued this, was experimentation on eye pigmentation. One might say what does this have to do with mind control? Well, like I said earlier, this type of mind control is a total control - the mind, body and spirit of the victim is totally controlled. It is far more extensive than people would imagine.

This type of mind control regulates the heartbeat of the victim, and a lot of other things. That's why the suicide programming can be so powerful. He started this pigmentation experimentation which Ewen Cameron ... by the way, Josef Mengele, when he came to the USA was known by the programming name, Dr. Green and Ewen Cameron was known as Dr. White within the Illuminati circles. Cisco Wheeler (whom I brought out of the Illuminati) - her father was known as Dr. Black.

Wayne Morris:

You are saying that Cameron and Mengele were associates and friends?

Fritz Springmeier:

Yeah. Cisco would occasionally see these men (Drs. Green, and White and there was a Dr. Blue) meet at her father's house out here on the West Coast. They would come together and discuss their programmings, methodologies, networking, talking with each other, etc. They were Program Masters within the Illuminati. Mengele spent a lot of time travelling world-wide, not just here in the Northwest. Cameron tended to work on the East coast and as you are familiar, the Rockefeller Foundation gave him $40,000 back in 1943 to create the Allen Memorial Institute. Even before Mengele came to this country, Cameron was already part of their Illuminati system.

Wayne Morris:

Did Ewen Cameron have a particular role within the development of mind control technology? I understood he specialized in electroshock and went around the country teaching other psychiatrists on methods of electroshock? Was that his role, or was it broader?

Fritz Springmeier:

They were all working on how to refine the thing - these were your top of the line programmers. Mengele was really the father of it all, and he taught a lot of what he knew to Drs. White, Black and Blue. Mengele was the one who had the opportunity to experiment on a lot of people in the concentration camp where he did all kinds of weird and sadistic things. Cameron and the others were both operational and experimental. If you look at how the military and science works, when they discover something that is workable, they will take that information and they will make a new technology out of it, but they will continue experimenting to improve on what they have done. So, at the same time that Cameron was using electroshock to split the minds of his victims, he was also looking for ways to refine what they were doing. Eventually they came back, and after several decades of looking at the results of the different programming - they took the best programming scripts and the best methodologies and upgraded their programming in general. The programming that is being done today is far more sophisticated and far more refined than what they were working on and operationally carrying out.

Wayne Morris:

What special significance do twins have for Mengele?

Fritz Springmeier:

If you are going to do a scientific experiment, you know you have need of a control group (subject). How do you get a control group for experimentation on humans? You need twins, and you need thousands of them. Mengele experimented on three thousand twins - that was one of the "benefits" of being within the Nazi concentration camp system. As adults and children came through Auschwitz, he had his subordinates indicate which of them were identical twins. Most of the twins that he worked on died because he was beyond sadistic. He was also developing methods on how to bond people and he was learning how to artificially bond people. I had mentioned earlier how Cisco had been teamed with three other people who also escaped from the Illuminati. They were all "twinned" together, they had artificial twinning done to them.

Wayne Morris:

Is it similar to what you were describing before about the "mirroring"?

Fritz Springmeier:

The twinning incorporates all of the 12 sciences of mind control - it is pretty sophisticated in itself.

Wayne Morris:

To your awareness, did the German Nazis use mind control operatives within WWII?

Fritz Springmeier:

Oh yes. They were using them since the early thirties. The Germans and the British both were creating multiples for intelligence work, assassination, and so forth. Prior to the outbreak of WWII, the Nazis were foresighted, and brought Germans to the USA who were trained multiple personalities. They created a settlement of them in Upper New York State. That group of people continues to live there as a group. These multiples who were brought into our country had alters that were programmed to assassinate by sticking picks into people (key places in the body) and things like that. They created this settlement with the idea that if Germany ever would manage to defeat the USA, that these people would be in place to help them.

Wayne Morris:

Is there any indication that the USA government had used mind controlled operatives in WWII?

Fritz Springmeier:

I have not found any indication that they used programmed multiples, but remember that the leadership of our country was in the hands of the Illuminati down through our history. To a large degree our Presidents are related to each other. A lot of people don't realize how related they are. Ulysses S. Grant, the 18th President, was related to Franklin Deleno Roosevelt. The Deleno family is an ancient aristocratic family that originates in Venice. Ulysses Grant was related via the Deleno family. His greatgrandmother was Susannah Deleno. Grant was also from the Collins family. In one of my videotapes, I go into the Grant family and how they tie in with the Illuminati. One of the reasons I do that is because Cisco is a descendant of the Ulysses Grant bloodline, a descendant of the Collins bloodline. This was her ticket into the Illuminati.

Many of our presidents tie back into these Illuminati bloodlines, more than people realize. There were multiple personalities in our government during WWII. But it wasn't until Mengele came over that the Illuminati had somebody with the scientific sophistication to really get into scientifically programs. The "benefit" we received from Mengele and Operation Paperclip was advancing our government's knowledge of how to program innocent children.

Wayne Morris:

I would like to change the topic a little bit. How has popular culture been used for programming, and why has it been used?

Fritz Springmeier:

There are different levels that you lock a person into and control. One is to control their milieu, their environment. It is extremely difficult for me to talk about all of these issues. They build a person's frame of reference from the time they were little. I ask people, "who built your frame of reference? who built your world view?" From the time you were little, establishment groups - churches, schools, and so forth - have been steering your education so there isn't a frame of reference for people to hang the information I would like to give them. If you don't have a frame of reference to understand any of this information, it is hard to break through of the control. By controlling information and what society does, they steer society as a whole. The schools are used, entertainment, Hollywood, everything is used. The programming a person will receive will use the items of everyday life to control them. For instance, Cisco was taught to smoke as a little child by her father who was her programmer, her master. With every puff, she was to think about how much he loved her, and then when she exhaled, she was also to think a programming thought. So the very act of smoking reinforced the mind control. They will take buildings in the area the mind control lives in and they will use those to reinforce the programming. They will use many common items from the slaves' everyday lives to reinforce the programming messages that have been layered.

Wayne Morris:

Maybe we can talk about one film that seems to come up in a lot of survivors' programming - that's 'The Wizard of Oz'. How has that been used?

Fritz Springmeier:

It is one of the standard programming scripts that has been used. A lot of people don't realize that Frank Baum actually wrote 14 Wizard of Oz books - The Tin Woodsman of Oz, The Land of Oz, Glinda of Oz, Ozma of Oz. Actually the books were used more in the programming than the movie. If one goes through and looks at the books, and I extracted some of the programming scripts and put them in the Volume 2 book so people could see how Frank Baum's books, whether they were specifically written for mind control or not, apparently fit in beautifully with creating mind control scripts. The movie then would reinforce the scripts that were put in.

Wayne Morris:

Would these scripts be used mainly for manipulating the reality of the identities being programmed?

Fritz Springmeier:

Most of the personalities that are created within a mind controlled slave, do not live in reality. They live in a fictional world. They work off scripts. For instance if I was going to have a particular personality pick up drugs, they may hypnotically see the person handing them the bag of drugs as The White Rabbit and they might see the bag as some treats or something. They live in a totally fictional world and since these personalities only hold the body at isolated points in time, they don't have any cohesive life in which to challenge the hypnotic programming script they have been given. They live their entire lives in trance. These scripts are very important to use to control the personalities that live in their fictional world.

Wayne Morris:

Can you give some other examples of popular culture that have been used for programming?

Fritz Springmeier:

Batman, Bewitched, Disney movies. One of the very improtant Disney movies was "Fantasia" and in my recent book, "Deeper Insights" I have eleven pages where I go through minute by minute, scene by scene, in the movie "Fantasia" and show how Fantasia was created and used to be a programming foundation. Star Wars movies, My Fair Lady which was used in the finishing schools for slaves, Stephen King horror movies are used, Startrek, The Love Boat has been used for the mind control of their cruise prostitutes, E.T. - alien programming of their slaves, Alice in Wonderland.

Wayne Morris:

All of these are really prominent in our culture and I am wondering what the effect is on someone who has been programmed if they see these movies again on television or in video rental, or in a movie theatre?

Fritz Springmeier:

It just locks in the control and emphasizes the hopelessness. For a mind controlled slave who is living in a whole culture that is controlled by these people, why would their mind ever think of trying to get free? Their spirits were broken when they were children, and everywhere they look they see the control and the programming.

Wayne Morris:

This isn't to say that some of these tv programs or films have been deliberately made with mind control in mind, but that they have been used by the programmers?

Fritz Springmeier:

Deliberate is more accurate.

Wayne Morris:

So some of these expressions of culture have been deliberately created. Have you looked into the backgrounds of some of the people involved in producing them?

Fritz Springmeier:

Ducktail Cartoons which is put on by Disney contains deliberate triggers for the children. Deliberate triggers in the advertisements; deliberate messages and codes. In "Deeper Insights" I spend about fifty pages going into Disney, who Disney was, what they did behind the scenes, what the movies are all about. Look at "Beauty and the Beast" you will see an enchanted ____clock, or you will see the character Doorknob - protrayed as a person. That's used in the cartoon, "Alice in Wonderland". Those particular sections will be seen by an alter in a person's system, and the mind will be made to believe that they were a doorknob. These are specifically, creatively put into the films for those reasons.

Wayne Morris:

Some of these alters that are created are not even animals or people, they can be inanimate objects.

Fritz Springmeier:

Only a few of the front alters of an alter system will realize that they are human.

Wayne Morris:

You have gone into in the book that I have, "The Illuminati Formula ..." quite a bit about Star Trek. What have you learned about the technical manuals published about Star Trek?

Fritz Springmeier:

I have observed programmed multiples - some that have been untreated, and some that have been untreated - who are totally obsessed with everything involved with Star Trek. A former deprogramming assistant gave me information on the Star Trek programming and I could sit and confirm it by my own observations of multiples. Over the years a number of highly technical manuals on Star Trek eequipment and themes have been published. When you look at these manuals - the best way of explaining all the money and time that was spent to develop these complex manuals is that they are serving a mind control purpose. Knowing how the programming is put in, I know why they were done a certain way.

Boeing Plant in Seattle has a lot of tunnels underneath it, and some of those tunnels are used for programming. Someone who worked at Boeing was telling me how workers would, on a normal day it was standard for them to sneak off to go into the underground tunnels and watch Star Trek movies. I thought that was interesting.

Wayne Morris:

Can you describe the technical manuals and the level of technical detail that they went into?

Fritz Springmeier:

They have maps of the universe. Where a map of the Milky Way could be used is when you are splintering the mind of a victim and you are looking for some kind of a pattern to restructure it, you would use something like a galaxy map to recreate their mind. You have star clusters, planets. When you wanted to have a whole group of alters, personalities that would only relate to themselves, you could put them on one planet and the only way alters could communicate from one "planet" to another would be through some type of "beam me up" type of thing. When you were being "beamed", you would actually be dissociated and going into trance.

And you have different locomotion devices that are built into the system which are actually methods for the mind going into dissociation. When you are electroshocking someone, and a flash of light is hitting them at the same time you are applying electroshock, you can tell the person that they are travelling through space, or who knows what, different scripts can be built in.

The technical manuals will have section indexes and when they structure the mind controlled slaves they build sections and those sections are coded and you will find the technical manuals have number codes, colour codes which is another aspect of the mind control all the way through. I talked about the 13x13x13 grid earlier within Cisco's system. If you want to add another dimension to your cube, then you add colour coding for certain alters.

Each of your alters typically will receive a colour code and that ties back in to computers that are built within their minds. These computers are built by taking dissociated parts of the mind and making them into a computer - computers that control each section - and then those computers are in turn controlled by deeper computers. It's very complex but you can certainly see when you look at the technical manuals put together for the Star Trek theme that they dovetail perfectly with what the programming needs are.

Wayne Morris:

These things are purportedly just paraphenalia items for a very limited market of hardcore Trekkies - the price tag seems to be incongruent with the amount of work that has gone into making them.

Fritz Springmeier:

Exactly. That was my thought. My Dad was an engineer and I have looked over a lot of drafting projects. I worked for the Federal Highway Administration for a while so I know the type of engineering work that would go into building a highway, and I am just amazed at the technical detail, engineering, graphics and everything that goes into these technical manuals for something that is a "fiction", a movie ... we are not talking about something that is real life.

Wayne Morris:

Since we are talking about movies, I would like to ask you what has Hollywood's involvement been in mind control slavery?

Fritz Springmeier:

The Illuminati and the Mob have controlled Hollywood. Another aspect of this is that a lot of your slaves are actors, eg. Roseanne Barr, who I mentioned earlier; Madonna; Marilyn Monroe; each of these women was a programmed multiple. You have a lot of slaves who are acting for them. One of the benefits of having programmed multiples is the way their minds have been structured. Some of them are very good at memorizing scripts or getting into fictional roles. As I mentioned earlier, some of the movies, like "Fantasia" - Disneyland itself was a programming centre. It was more than their just putting out movies that were for programming, but they actually created a lot of these movies with the codes. Another one I didn't mention is "I Dream of Jeannie" - which is the Delta alter "Jeannie" programming with the trigger "your wish is my command."

Another aspect of Hollywood that comes in here - there are fictional movies, at least they purport to be fictional movies, which are actually showing, amazingly, top secret Illuminati ceremonies and Illuminati history, methods. It's really blown me away to watch some of these things. "Hellraiser 3" shows gatekeepers. Watch "Bell, Book and Candle" or "Curse of the Voodoo". Not only do they show Illuminati ceremonies, but some of these movies actually show the mind control. I would recommend that the listeners, if they wanted to learn more, watch the Charles Bronson movie, "Telethon", or you could watch "The Manchurian Candidate" or "Videodrome", "Labyrinth." I go into explaining how "Labyrinth" is a programming script in the Volume 2 book. "Transfer 2", "Attack of the Robots", "Attack of the Puppet People" ... we could go on and on. Jane Fonda's "The Point of No Return" - that connects in with the OTO. That's one of the occult fronts of the very high-up, powerful organizations involved with the Illuminati.

Wayne Morris:

What do you think is the purpose of having mind control slaves in the Hollywood industry in terms of the impact on the public? What are they trying to accomplish with these films, and are they manipulating these actors in some way to have some effect on the public?

Fritz Springmeier:

There is manipulation in many different ways. I guess one thing I could say that builds upon your last question and also answers your current question, is the late Anton Lavey, for instance, who was the head of the Church of Satan. He was a mind control programmer and he was very close with Hollywood. By using him in Hollywood as an advisor to movies, and in other ways (he tied in with some underground film-making too) it gave him legitimacy. Another person who also connected in some with Hollywood, who was also connected with Anton Lavey, was Michael Aquino who connected in with military intelligence. He was another programmer and he was in charge of another Satanic organization, The Temple of Set.

Wayne Morris:

Which is an offshoot of Anton Lavey's Church of Satan ...

Fritz Springmeier:

Aquino was one of Lavey's henchmen until he formed his own organization.

Wayne Morris:

And Michael Aquino has been implicated in the Presidio daycare child abuse scandal as well ...

Fritz Springmeier:

A very disgusting person like the rest of these programmers. Another tie-in here with Hollywood is Kenneth Anger who was a member of Lavey's group, and he was a film-maker. He is also someone who was infatuated with Aleister Crowley. Kenneth Anger danced with Shirley Temple when he was a child, and Shirley Temple as you know ties in with Walt Disney, and with the mind control too. I believe she was a victim. There is something they do to the children, it's called brainstem scarring and when they scar the brainstem they create photographic memory. That's a whole other subject, but I believe that this child prodigy, Shirley Temple, was also one of their mind control victims. That was prior to WWII. She was, I believe, a multiple.

Wayne Morris:

I wonder if you could just explain briefly how you think that works in terms of damaging the brainstem and how that would affect these memory abilities ...

Fritz Springmeier:

An analogy would be like when somebody does weightlifting - the idea of lifting weights is that you are destroying the muscles and the body overcompensates for the destruction and builds the muscles bigger next time around, like callouses. You damage your skin until your body overcompensates and creates callouses. When your brainstem is electronically scarred, the body overcompensates and rebuilds the brainstem in such a way that you have a photographic memory. So then if you scar somebody's brainstem to start with, and then you traumatize them so the mind splits into multiple personalities, each of those personalities generally takes on the characteristics of its predecessor and has a photographic memory.

Wayne Morris:

It seems that would be very useful in terms of some of the ways operatives are utilized, eg. for espionage. Was that a common technique used in the conditioning, scarring of the brainstem, photographic memory?

Fritz Springmeier:

It is now. During the 1930's when they were creating multiples, they knew that trauma itself helped mental abilities, so there were a lot of just scientists, who weren't part of the Illuminati who were traumatizing their kids to improve their thinking abilities. It's really a warped way of thinking, but there is some efficacy to the methodology.

Wayne Morris:

Just to jump back to the culture industries, and how they have been involved, how has the music industry been involved in mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:

Good question. That takes us back to WWII when first the UK, then Canada, then our country was totally mobilized for the war effort, and they mobilized Hollywood for the war effort. The US military hired all these entertainers for the USO shows - it was placed under the Special Services Division of the Army. They brought in people like Bob Hope who was working for MI-6. Bob Hope is very skilled with mind control. You had earlier asked me if the USA was using programmed multiples? The USA was using mind control during WWII, but not the type of programmed multiplicity that Mengele developed. But during WWII, they were using the USO magicians to pass coded messages to the troops. To say and do things for their intelligence work. What group of people can move from one military unit to another without causing suspicion of the enemy? Entertainers. They used them for US and British intelligence.

Wayne Morris:

So they would be used to pass messages to people in the know ...

Fritz Springmeier:

Right. Bob Hope was an intelligence operative for British Intelligence. He was used in the USO a lot. The USO created at least 200 bands. A lot of the bands we know of now Guy Lombardo, Lawrence Welk, Sam Donahue - these were all created in the USO program. When the USO program ceased at the end of WWII, you had this whole music industry that was basically created by the Intelligence organizations, and it was heavily salted with their intelligence operatives. It was a natural thing for the CIA - created out of the OSS - and the NSA to continue to use the music industry as it had been used in WWII for intelligence purposes. Our entire music industry here in the USA is actually an intelligence front for the Illuminati.

Wayne Morris:

Hmm. I know you have written specifically about the country music industry. I wonder if you could talk about that industry's involvement.

Fritz Springmeier:

I am not trying to single out country and western music. Some people might think Fritz has it in for country and western music - no, I actually enjoy a lot of that music, so I don't have anything against that particular brand, or that particular industry. I mean, the rock and roll music industry is also heavily used and ties in with the mind control too. A lot of the songs in country and western music are deliberately written for programming, but the songs evoke thoughts of god, country - so you have your front there. You have to understand how these people work. They try to play upon things that we get kneejerk reactions to. If I sing a song about god, how can anybody accuse me of being bad? If I sing patriotic songs, how can anyone accuse me of not being a good person? I sing about god and country ...

You look at the front they create, and then they do what they want to behind that front. The whole C&W industry is just part and parcel of the mind control, and of drug running. Because these C&W singers travel from one city to another, they are the perfect vehicles for moving drugs. They are a very important part of the Illuminati drug running.

Wayne Morris:

In your book you have alleged a lot of the leading C&W figures are involved in this activity?

Fritz Springmeier:

Yeah, some of them are victims of the mind control; some are abusers of the mind control; some of them are programmers. One of the worst mind control programmers within the industry is Jerry Lee Lewis. He has a very bad reputation. He is infamous among victims of mind control for being an extremely sadistic programmer. When slaves manage to escape, they are very often sent to Jerry Lee Lewis and his cousin, a minister, and also ties in with this as a programmed multiple.

Wayne Morris:

Do you feel that the use of popular culture and these entertainment industries serves another purpose in terms of preconditioning society as a whole, or manipulating social beliefs?

Fritz Springmeier:

Oh yeah, definitely. The whole long-range goal of this, and when I say long-range, it's not going to take them long to get us there at the rate they are going - the end goal of all of this is to eventually create an entire planet of mind controlled slaves that can be controlled by one super computer. They are manipulating our thoughts and our attitudes, and steering us, herding us (they consider us animals - the Illuminati consider themselves god, god men and us to be the animals) they are herding us in the direction they want to us to go. So yeah, the music is definitely playing a role in dehumanizing us, conditioning us, as well as a lot of mind control triggers and messages are passed via the singing. In the Volume 2 book and in the "Deeper Insights" book, I spend quite a few pages going into the codes and the triggers, and I spend several pages explaining what the different songs that are played over the radio - how they are used in triggering mind controlled slaves.

Wayne Morris:

Again, I guess it's part of having a culture permeated with the kind of triggers that just reinforces the programming for the victims.

Fritz Springmeier:

Right. And if they are going to have their programmed slaves go to a ritual, there is one song, "A Heartache Tonight", which will be played over some radio stations. And if I am a mind controlled slave, and it's Friday night, and I hear that song over the radio, I may be programmed to switch alters and go to a pre-arranged location where I am picked up or whatever, and participate in a satanic sabbat. They are able to use the music industry in a whole number of ways.

Wayne Morris:

To you knowledge, Fritz, what groups are involved currently in using mind control slavery?

Fritz Springmeier:

Currently, mind controlled slaves are used by intelligence organizations; occult groups; military groups; big and small religious groups. Many various criminals who are in each of these groups network together and in fact, their own word to describe themselves is "The Network". If we are a little bit more specific about what groups - I was giving you the broad, general categories. Examples within the US military are Delta Forces, First Earth Battalion, are mind controlled units. Then you've got mind controlled slaves scattered throughout all of the regular branches. Within your intelligence organizations some of the big offenders are MI-6 and of course their P-4 section, and Naval Intelligence which is ONI. A lot of government organizations like Bureau of Narcotics, FBI, NASA. When we look at what kind of occult groups are using this trauma-based total mind control you will see the KKK, Neo-Nazis, OTO. You will see groups like the Freemasons and the Oddfellows. Then you get more hardcore occult groups like the Church of Satan, the Children of Lucifer, Society of the Dark Lily. Religions? You've got your smaller religions like this group that was so interested in Halle Boppe to the extent they committed suicide. Small groups like that. According to the information I have, David Koresh and his leaders were mind controlled slaves who were conducting group control methods over their Branch Davidian group. You've got your small groups like this clear up to your large groups like the Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, and the Charismatic Movement.

Wayne Morris:

Some of the branches of the military you mentioned - the Delta Forces and the First Earth Battalion - are you saying that all of the people involved in these forces are mind controlled?

Fritz Springmeier:

Within Delta Forces, 100% of them are. Within the First Earth Battalion, from what I understand, that could also be 100% of its units are under mind control. Within the Army - the Army has special task groups that - for instance - I am sorry to say, but unfortunately it's true - the US Army has select squads of assassins that travel even around the USA and eliminate people. From my inside information on that, these squads are not entirely made up of mind controlled slaves - they have a variety of control methods over these types. I guess what I am saying is, that although you may find a smattering of mind controlled slaves used in various branches of the military, those first two that I mentioned are the only ones that I know of that are entirely made up of mind controlled robots.

Wayne Morris:

These military operatives - would they have been subjected to the trauma-based conditioning from childhood?

Fritz Springmeier:

Yes. That's what I am talking about.

Wayne Morris:

How typically do people who end up in these forces get introduced to the mind control? Through their families?

Fritz Springmeier:

Well these are victims of mind control that would have been placed under mind control in childhood.

Wayne Morris:

Typically would they be from military families?

Fritz Springmeier:

They would be from a wide variety. If you have looked at the way the military does things, there is a lot of what they call "military brats" - the children of military men that then are put into positions of responsibility.

Wayne Morris:

To your awareness, has the corporate world used mind control in any way?

Fritz Springmeier:

Yes, the corporate world does use mind controlled slaves. Several examples that pop immediately into my mind are ARCO - some of your listeners may have read "Angels don't play this HAARP" by Begich and Manning. If they haven't, I recommend the book. You will read quite a bit about ARCO which did all kinds of HAARP research. ARCO did a lot of research and the branch of ARCO which is APPI held some of the patents. They also worked with E Systems which held some of the patents for HAARP research. ARCO is one of the worst offenders, at least in terms of what I have discovered from victims of mind control that I have been in contact with. They are one of the worst, so that probably explains why they were given a highly sensitive project like HAARP.

Another company that was given sensitive work to do was Gunderson. Here in Portland Gunderson Steel has been making a large number of special order rail cars which have shackles and cupolas for guards. It is a very sensitive secret project which has been farmed out to 11 major railcar producers. Gunderson is one of these.

And these railcars are to be used to transport civilians to all these already-built concentration camps across America. Gunderson is another one of these companies that uses mind control slaves. I am speaking with firsthand knowledge about that because I have spoken with some of the programmed multiples that work at Gunderson.

Another corporation that comes to mind is a big, corporate conglomerate - Disney, Capital Cities, ABC - the three of them went together and made themselves a nice, big corporate conglomerate. They produce porn and they do some other activities with the programmed multiple slaves.

Wayne Morris:

Just getting back to ARCO, we are actually going to be interviewing Nick Begitch in a future show and talking about the HAARP project in particular. I understand there are mind control elements to that project in particular. The information you found is in addition to that - they have been using mind controlled, trauma-based conditioned slaves as well?

Fritz Springmeier

Right. His book doesn't talk about mind controlled slaves being used by ARCO - his book is about this technology that they are installing in Alaska. It is a Star Wars-type technology that works in the atmosphere and manipulates things electronically - electromagnetic radiation.

Wayne Morris:

Yeah. It's a huge antenna array that shoots high frequency energy into the ionosphere.

Fritz Springmeier

Besides communicating with satellites, it can actually change the weather. It can also manipulate the way people think in a geographical area that has been hit by its electromagnetic radiation.

Wayne Morris:

One of the side effects apparently is extra low frequency energy that is reflected back to earth which is the frequency that our brain operates on.

What typically would these companies use mind controlled slaves for?

Fritz Springmeier

Sensitive projects that have to be kept under wraps by the New World Order. The production of railcars to haul civilians to concentration camps. Our government has kept the concentration camp project pretty low key.

Wayne Morris:

So these people would be used to work on these projects and the company ensuring that they don't talk about it outside.

You spoke of the Illuminati being an extension of mystery religions and I wonder if you could tell our listeners what were the mystery religions, and what was their role in history?

Fritz Springmeier

You have asked two questions. One of the people who is well worth quoting is Manley P. Hall. He is both a Grand Master Illuminati and a Grand Master in the Freemasons. In his book, "The Secret Teachings of All Ages", he said that the mystery religions were the channel through which the light to mankind was disseminated. (p.29) The mystery religions claimed to the ancient world that they had revelation knowledge that would help enlighten and save people. They claimed that by joining them, and then going through the secret rituals, that you would elevate yourself. They claimed that you would become divine, or that you would reunite with your divine self if you went through the rituals and got to the highest, deepest levels of their secrets. That's what they were telling people on the outside. There are a lot of different ways to look at a phenomenon and I want to bring in a couple of other angles. First, Swinbourne Kleimer, a high ranking Freemason and Rosicrucian leader, said that there was a secret body that ruled and controlled all the various ancient mystery religions in the ancient world - Europe, Egypt, Babylon, clear over to Indian. You can read this claim in his book "Ancient Mystic Oriental Freemasonry" on p. 84-85. I can agree with him. What he is referring to here - the one secret body that will control all the various mystery religions - was what we call today The Illuminati. The Illuminati is the continuation of that secret controlling body. Freemasonry is the outer symbology of the ancient mystery religions, but if you want the hardcore rituals of the ancient mystery religions, those are the ones that are performed by the Illuminati.

And what was their role in history? They played an exceptionally role in history. If one thinks about the power that kings have, who are kings dependent on? Kings must work through other people and they are dependent on their advisors, and their financiers. You can't have a king going off and making a war unless he has money, so he is depending on those financiers. The financiers are dependent on trade and production of goods. The mystery religions, or secret societies, had so much power because they controlled the trade guilds with the trade secrets on how to produce the different goods. For instance the art of making armour, or the art of making a long bow, or the art of making a venetian war ship, or getting closer to home - the roots of Freemasonry go back to the masonic builders guild and the architectural knowledge to design and build a cathedral was controlled by trade guilds which were controlled by these mystery religions, these secret societies. You could be the king of a country, but you were still under the control of these mystery religions and secret societies. The man who supposedly converted the Roman Empire over to Christianity was the head of the Mithra mystery religion. They have played an extremely powerful and important part in history. They have controlled the priesthood and the trade guilds. But also there are a couple of ways they have played a continuous role in history in that they have guided human endeavours because the Illuminati, the mystery religions, have what they call "The Keepers of the Great Plans". That's not just my own opinion. Manley P. Hall, the Illuminati kingpin, in at least one of his books, goes into how the mystery religions of the great plan to bring in this great New World Order.

Wayne Morris:

What was this great plan?

Fritz Springmeier

Part of it goes back to the idea of the Golden Age of the Millenium. That's an important concept for me to talk about. I will be stepping on a few people's toes here. Your Christians are really unaware of where their concept of the millenium came from. They think that it comes from the bible, but if they go back historically they will see that William Miller, who started the Adventist movement and started talking about millenium, was a high ranking Freemason. He predicted that Christ would return in 1844. The question is, did Christ return in 1844? Most people, because we have a limited perspective on things, would say no, he didn't. But there was a man called Nabob who appeared in Persia, and he said I am Christ, and he started the Bahai religion. He fulfilled William Miller's prophecy. The Freemasons were the ones who introduced the Bahai religion to America, and they did it through the Chicago Masonic Temple around the turn of the century. The Bahai religion is committed to a one world government, a new world order, and a one world religion. There was this Masonic Oriental Order of the Magi and they were the hardcore group within the Chicago Masonic Temple who started the Bahai religion in this country. These are the kinds of things that I tried to expose so that people see how this all interconnects.

A very brilliant man, James H. Billington, who was the librarian of the Library of Congress, wrote a book, "Fire in the Minds of Men" and the Illuminati didn't realize what he was doing. He kind of blindsided. He was a member of the Council of Foreign Relations so he as one of them. They thought he was one of theirs. This book goes through and it talks about where the word "revolution" came from - it came from the occult societies. The word "revolution" which we use today to mean "armed rebellion" didn't have that meaning in the beginning. The way it began to be used to mean armed rebellion to overthrow the old order and establish something new, was because occult societies, like the Freemasons who had been behind all of the revolutions of modern history from the American Revolution on - have all been created by the Freemasons and the Illuminati. Billington goes back in and traces how all the revolutions were started by this occult elite. The term revolution came from the occult idea that we were going to revolve ourselves back to the Golden Age. There is this great quest for the Golden Age, this millenialism. That's what communism is about. If you look at the early founders of communism - they were trying to revolve us back through revolution to the Golden Age that had been lost.

Wayne Morris:

What was their idea of what a Golden Age consisted of?

Fritz Springmeier

Socialized communistic type society. This is why when you read masonic prophets, like H.G. Wells who wrote a number of books on how the New World Order could be brought about, the Fabian Socialists, etc. who have all these detailed plans - it's always for a socialistic, communistic type utopia.

Wayne Morris:

But with a fascist leadership it seems ...

Fritz Springmeier

Yes. (laughs) On the surface it sounds really hunky-dory. It sounds really great. But it ends up more like Animal Farm and George Orwell.

Wayne Morris:

I would also like to talk about what the relation of intelligence groups such as the CIA, the DIA and the MI-6 is to the Illuminati.

Fritz Springmeier

There's a very close relationship. You will notice with MI-6, in the first few decades of their existence (they came into existence at the turn of the century), they hired only women who came from elite Illuminati families. If you were a female working with MI-6, you were referred to as Queenie, and they really were Illuminati queens. We go back and look at who set up these organizations, who runs these organizations. Look at the CIA for instance. People that understand what the Council for Foreign Relations is all about and how that's an Illuminati front will understand better what I am talking about. You look at Dulles, McCone, Helms, Slesinger, Bush, Turner, Casey - you just go down your list of directors of the CIA - and they were members of the Council for Foreign Relations. Not only that, but they were members of other organizations that are Illuminati fronts. Turner was a Rhodes scholar which is an entry point for Illuminati. The Astors helped found the Rhodes scholars. Casey and McCone - both of whom were Knights of Malta. Look at the membership of the Knights of Malta, 50% black nobility. I am talking about black in the context of the black (guelph) European aristocratic bloodlines - the black (.....s) were a very powerful bloodline that have controlled Europe for many centuries. General Walter Bedell Smith was head of the CIA - from 1950 to 1953 - working in US intelligence - he was one of the co-founders of the Bilderbergers. Prince Bernhardt (Illuminati) was the Chairman of the original Bilderbergers. One of the late Chairs was Peter Rupert (Lord Carrington) was Order of St. John which is the Protestant version of the Knights of Malta. He was a director of a number of the Rothschild organizations like the Rio Tinto Zinc Corporation. He was a member of the Order of the Garter, which is very significant; and a member of the Order of Osiris. The Order of the Garter is one of the primary organizations which was given the responsibility to be in charge of the plans to bring in the New World Order by the Illuminati, and to give continuity from one generation to another. The Order of the Garter is extremely powerful. Your coat of arms etc. is all controlled by the Order of the Garter which is set up in covens of 13, groups of 13. If you have ever looked at heraldry you will know how important this is. The Bilderbergers is also set up in groups of 13, the inner committee is 13.

Wayne Morris:

Henry Kissinger is a prominent member of the Bilderbergers. What is his involvement in that group, to your awareness?

Fritz Springmeier

I don't know that he is a member himself, but he is a member of MI-6, he has been a member of P2 Freemasonry, involved with a lot of things. He is a big player for them to implement their agenda. I do not know whether he's an actual member within the Illuminati or not, but he has sure been a big player. In fact one day I listened to Henry Kissinger speaking and he said, "We will get a New World Order. We may not get it in our generation, but if we do not get it in our generation, we will get it in the next generation." In other words they are just going to keep trying. That's what the Order of the Garter has been assigned to do. When we look at these different intelligence groups, like the KGB and the CIA, we think we are looking at two groups that are fighting a covert war against each other. However that is only what we are meant to see.

There is a recent book by a Colonel Corsell, "Day After Roswell". His book is eye opening in many ways, in fact it may be hard to get after a little while. There seems to be a movement to suppress it. In his book he talks about how the CIA and the KGB are essentially one organization, and this was back in the 50's. He was tailed by CIA agents even though he was a Colonel in the US Army - he's got the CIA spying on him, trying to find out what he is doing. He has to keep secrets from the CIA. I had an acquaintance whose father is high up in the CIA and he said when he was a teenager, one day his father came by and dropped a bombshell on him in that he couldn't even understand what his father was talking about. His father said out of the blue that the Cold War was a hoax. This teenager who had bought into the appearances the common people are supposed to accept was really confused. He didn't understand. He said it took him years to understand what his father was secretly referring to.

We see these different groups and they appear to be different teams. But it's sort of like coming up to a football field and seeing two teams playing each other - you can't automatically assume they are not from the same school. It may be a scrimmage or an intervarsity game. You will see the hidden hand of the Illuminati in the creation of both the CIA and the KGB. In MI-6 you will see Lord Victor Rothschild running things; Admiral Sir Hugh Sinclair - the Sinclairs are one of these families. MI-5, which is internal security for Britain - their first Director General for many years was Major General Sir Vern Keele. He was a Freemason, and a number of other Director Generals of MI-5 have also been Freemasons and also have been tied to these other organizations. The Director of MI-5 during WWII was Knights of Grace of St. John. You could go on and on showing the overlapping connections.

If you look at Allen Dulles who was the Director of the CIA from 1953-1961 you will see his role with Hitler prior to WWII, working with the international financiers - the bankers of these Illuminati kingpins. You will see his connections to the elite.

Wayne Morris:

And certainly the information about the CIA facilitating the flight of Nazi war criminals to North America - Dulles was involved in that.

Fritz Springmeier

Dulles was the man the Illuminati used to inform Hitler that the financiers would support him in his bid for power. He was the guy who brought the good news to Hitler ... hey, you can go for it, we will finance you.

Wayne Morris:

I would like to talk about another CIA director who was actually recently in Toronto accepting an Honorary Degree at the University of Toronto - George Bush. I wondered if you could talk about his affiliation with Skull & Bones ...

Fritz Springmeier

Skull & Bones is an entry point into the Illuminati. Researchers have noticed the Skull & Bones, but there are a lot of other organizations which are entry points. Rhodes Scholars, a group in Oxford, there are number of different fraternal organizations. Skull & Bones is not the only one - but that's the one George Bush joined. There is also Scroll & Key, Rezilius, and some other fraternal organizations. One of the things George Bush did in his initiation ceremony for Skull & Bones was to lie in manure and recount all of his sexual exploits.

Wayne Morris:

I understand that's an initiation ritual for all members of Skull & Bones.

Fritz Springmeier

Right.

Wayne Morris:

You mentioned at the top of the interview that George Bush was related to some royal family - is that the House of Windsor?

Fritz Springmeier:

He is a distant relative of Prince Charles and Queen Elizabeth. It's a distant relationship.

Wayne Morris:

In your opinion, what has George Bush's role been in attempting to implement a global government?

Fritz Springmeier:

He's been a criminal, and he has provided leadership for criminal activity. He's been involved with creating wars, with drug running, with pornography and mind control.

Wayne Morris:

Are you aware of any information that George Bush is also a pedophile?

Fritz Springmeier:

Oh yeah. Cathy O'Brien for instance, who I have visited with, her daughter spent time with George Bush and other people that are familiar with the mind control and what's going on have also said that the man was a pedophile.

Wayne Morris:

Do you think that people in groups trying to bring about global control are planning a take-over attempt at a certain point in time, or do you think they will continue this New World Order more gradually as they have been doing through expanded economic blocks and so forth?

Fritz Springmeier:

It's a combination of gradual, spiced with some cataclysmic events. From the vantage point of being a planner, and having the actual plans and details, you would see that things are being implemented on a continuous basis. For instance, I have mentioned previously that the Panama Canal and Suez Canal were planned by the Illuminati back around 1800 if not before. Those were things they wanted to implement on the way to a New World Order.

When you see cataclysmic events occur, let's say there is a nuclear exchange or aliens all of a sudden arrive, they seem cataclysmic and instantaneous to those of us who are the common people. But the planning for these events has gone on for a long time. So yes, it will be gradual, if you are looking at the implementation of these plans - but the appearance of some of these things will be rather cataclysmic. In order to bring in the New World Order as they would like to implement it, they want us to ask them to bring in what they want. So for instance in WWII when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, the Americans wanted to give away their freedoms to make their government more powerful. They will be implementing things that will cause us to ask us to do what they want to do.

Wayne Morris:

What kinds of scenarios are possible?

Fritz Springmeier:

For instance in Australia - where this madman went in and he gunned down a lot of innocent people - children and families - boy - right after that they ramrodded through gun legislation and approximately half a million weapons were turned in without a fight by the Australians because of this horrendous massacre that took place. The same things are going to happen in this country and on this surface it's going to appear like this is just a madman who flipped out and he gunned down a lot of people. But from "their" vantage-point, they have spent a lot of years planning and programming.

Wayne Morris:

And one could argue that it has already started to happen in terms of things like the Oklahoma City bombing and bringing in the counter-terrorism bill immediately after.

Fritz Springmeier:

Yes. Exactly. I would say yes to both aspects. It will be both gradual and it will have a cataclysmic impact.

Wayne Morris:

How, in your opinion, could mind control be used in one of these scenarios to create cataclysmic events?

Fritz Springmeier:

I use the term "New World Order" but you could also use "World Order" because the same people who are bringing in the new world order have actually been controlling the world all along. It's really not "new" at all - it's just going into a more intense phase where the control is going to be more intense, and the mind control is going to be more pervasive and powerful. These people have been controlling things from behind the scenes for a long time. We go back and look at the power the British Empire had and the power that the French Empire had - and you ask yourself, well who was running the British Empire and the French Empire? And you see the same people, the same families. I had mentioned earlier how many American presidents were related and how we have really been controlled by these oligarchal families here in the USA.

Wayne Morris:

How would mind control possibly be used in a take-over scenario?

Fritz Springmeier:

One way that it could be used is if people look at the Charles Bronson movie, "Telethon", you will see the end result of this mind control. A housewife is called, given a fairy-tale ditty, and she goes out and blows up a military installation. There are a lot of people with programming to do acts of sabotage and assassination.

There are a lot of things that have to be accomplished. The weakest link in the chain is going to bust - and in order to implement all of these things from behind the scenes - you have to have mind controlled people salted in at all different levels to ensure that nobody reveals the secrets, that people do the job they are supposed to, that people forget the things they are supposed to forget. For instance banking - in the last few years a lot of banks have gone bankrupt. That has been very quietly covered over by bank mergers. A bank goes belly-up - they will bring in a bigger bank and swallow it up and call it a merger instead of a bankruptcy. How do they keep these things secret? I know some programmed multiples personally working in the banking system, and I do not know the full extent of what these people are used for, I can only speculate. They are definitely using mind controlled slaves within the banking system to hide their manipulations.

Wayne Morris:

Quite a number of victims of mind control have spoken about end-times programming. What can you tell us about that?

Fritz Springmeier:

The end-times programming refers to programming geared to bringing in New World Order and the reign of the anti-christ. It has a lot of colour programming - the list of people who are to be dealt with includes a red list comprised of those who are anti-new-world-order opposition leaders who are to be executed about two weeks before martial law. The blue list are people who are against what is being done, but they are going to attempt to program them, arrest them to see if they can correct their thinking. Probably a lot of them will be killed in the midst of reprogramming. The final list, the yellow list, is people who will be rounded up for re-education camps after martial law.

In the programming there are yellow flags at half-mast; yellow dog on run; blue fish at home; and I know this from work with mind control victims. Colour codes are used because they will be using a lot of mind control slaves, including foreign troops (eg. Russians) to implement these things. It is easier to use colour coding. Things will be implemented with activation codes which also use colour codes, eg. blue ray, red ray, purple ray, green ray. Those will go to team leaders. If the listeners are familiar with Amway they understand uplines and downlines - a team leader can have perhaps four people under him - he calls them - each of them calls four people. Those will be colour-coded. Each one of the eg. four will have a colour (blue ray, red ray, purple ray, green ray). And then some of the sites are colour coded. Internally within the minds of the slaves, some of them have internal crystals -- these crystals are timed -- they could also be rocks -- they are timed to explode or release certain programming at a certain point in time. These crystals will have colour codes as well.

If the therapist begins getting into end-time programming, that's one of the things they are going to notice. They are also going to notice mountain-tops are used quite a lot for meeting place or significant places. A lot of international cooperation is involved in their plans and programming. Common news events are often-times triggers -- eg. Lady Diana dying -- Princess Di's death caused certain mind control slaves to trigger off that news event.

End times programming also involves (because of the ushering in of the reign of the anti-christ) demonology involved -- the Demon "Purson" involved with the programming. His job is the Revelator of the anti-christ. He will know a victim's system. You will see "Apollo" -- Son of Apollo is the anti-christ -- so Apollo is the father of the anti-christ. You will see Escolapius (sp) - he is the Demon of healing. You see a lot of healing going on in the Charismatic Movement -- some of the ministers in this Movement are actually satanists and I know from eye witnesses that in secret they carry out satanic rituals where they attempt to gain the power of Escolapius which is a demonic healing power. When they go into these churches they use mind control and this demonic healing power to heal Christians and then tell people "God healed you". They don't state to them which god ...

Another aspect that is characteristic to the end-times programming is the involvement of the aliens. A lot of alien programming, plans with aliens, and a whole series of programming categories related to catastrophes. I am now speaking to therapists - when you get into the part of the system that is involved with end-times catastrophes, you will get into working with _____ alters. And another area involves a lot of computer control of people. And I am still only in the beginning of understanding all of this. There is an actual computer at 666 Connecticut Avenue in Washington, DC which is called the Janus 2 computer. When victims start spewing out their programming they start talking about the Janus coding which has something to do with tracking and reprogramming, and ties in with computers.

Then there is the Ambassador coding (sub-codes include setting fires; suicide; doing an act of violence against somebody). Emperor coding. Morse coding.

Wayne Morris:

What in a general sense would they be programmed to do.

Fritz Springmeier:

We are not talking about just running drugs or prostitution -- we are talking about control of society as a whole. One of the scarier options they have is to bring in a mock alien invasion. They will have flying saucers with aliens arrive. Because they control so many different aspects of society, even though a number of people like myself would say "beware of this, beware of that" we would be drowned out by this orchestra of people in different sectors of society (congressmen, newsmen, religious leaders) saying whatever the plan is for them to say. Of course there will be controlled opposition. There will be a few people saying, "I distrust these aliens, or this agenda, or what the government is doing" but they will be controlled opposition who will gather all the opposition to what they want to do and raise the hopes of people who are against this hidden agenda but will not actually carry through and stop it.

Wayne Morris:

Do you believe that the governments of the world have UFO technology that they have been developing? This alien invasion would be a staged invasion using their own military technology ...

Fritz Springmeier:

There is no question in my mind about it. Another agenda they have is to destroy faith in national governments. That has been divided into thousands of different projects. Jehovah's Witnesses who go door to door. If you look at their literature, it works very hard at destroying faith in nationalism. But who would suspect the Jehovah's Witnesses? Their Watchtower Society is actually an Illuminati front. In fact one of their members accidentally stumbled on to a big clue to this - he noticed there were thousands of hidden occult symbols in the Watchtower artwork. There would be a picture of a waterfall in a Watchtower magazine, but when you looked at it really closely you would realize it was a skull. It's like Currier & Ives used to have these hidden pictures - look at a tree and see other pictures. They have these occult messages hidden in the Watchtower literature - like a goat leading a herd of sheep, things like that. Or a thief running off with occult jewellery with an all-seeing eye and things like this.

They have a lot of hidden messages. Who would think of Jehovah's Witnesses being used? They use J-W's to access some of their slaves. Who can go door-to-door without suspicion? I brought Cisco out of the Illuminati. It doesn't mean I am the only person who ever helped her, but these J-W's will come to the door, and I will say, "No, don't answer the door." Her natural inclination would have been, "oh they are just Jehovah Witnesses." Interestingly the same couple who came to our door, to try to talk to Cisco, showed up the next day clear across town at another victim's doorstep - very strange. I know the Jehovah Witnesses from the inside and how they map out their territories and how they go door to door - and what happened was not normal. You had to have a team of people who were trying to access slaves that were getting free, and their cover was to be Jehovah Witnesses.

It sounds like I am getting a little bit off track, but what I am trying to say is - it is in their objective to destroy faith in the national government. How do you destroy a national government? You create civil war, create distrust of that government, bankrupt that government. There are all these different projects to bring down the American government, and bring down respect for our government - they play both ends against the middle.

Implementation of the end-times agendas involves a lot of agendas and a lot of people scurrying around doing different things -- until you see the whole picture and how it all fits together, it just looks like a lot of chaos.

Wayne Morris:

I wanted to come back to your point about them creating a chaotic situation, such as some of the scenarios you have been talking about. In order for the public to then ask for the military to step in, or for the United Nations to step in, and basically ask for a state of martial law -- is that your take on how they are going to do this?

Fritz Springmeier:

We will ask them for what they want to do. People have sat in on Illuminati meetings where they gave their 20, 30, 40 year plans -- the key word to all of those plans was that it would happen "naturally" - as if it was naturally happening. In order to implement that, you have a lot of mind controlled slaves out there. Another example, they want to destroy the continuity of religious beliefs in the USA. The USA was basically founded by a Protestant majority, there were very few Catholics when the USA was started. In other words, the people of this country had a common agreement -- one outlook on morality.

Fritz Springmeier:

When people have a moral belief system, Buddhist or whatever, if it's a very strong belife system, it's hard to change them. What they are trying to do is fragment our belief system. They have brought in a lot of foreign belief systems into the USA but you also have all of these New Age gurus popping up and creating their own little New Age groups. In the bigger picture, it's to destroy the fabric of a unified moral response, and a lot of these New Age leaders (eg. Elizabeth Claire Prophet - Church Universal and Triumphant) are mind controlled slaves. Jay Z. Knight, that's who she goes by - the entity she channels - she's a mind control slave. These are New Age leaders and they are gathering flocks. One of the gals who became a friend of mine who left the C.U.T. and became a Christian, in having worked with her, I noticed some red flags that maybe she, as one of the leaders of Elizabeth Claire Prophet's group, was a mind control victim, and she's not the only evidence I have that not only are the leaders under mind control who start the groups, but part of their flocks are mind control victims who are being programmed to join these cults.

Imagine if you are a religious leader and you get secret help from the establishment and you have people being programmed to join your organization, how that gives you an edge over you or I starting a religion. So that's one reason why we have such a chaotic religious atmosphere out there where all of these gurus and religious leaders are starting all these small weird groups.

Wayne Morris:

You talked about Dr. Ewen Cameron as being one of the mind control programmers. I would like to know specifically what his and McGill University's contribution to the development of trauma based mind control is, to your awareness.

Fritz Springmeier:

I don't know that I have a great deal to share. I know that St. Mary's Hospital there in Montreal was used by these people for programming. In the basement they had what was known as The Zombie Room, and an isolation room and the Grid Room. From various victims of mind control I know that various Catholic Church institutions were used in Quebec. As far as Cameron's personal contribution, I know that he worked for years assisting in the programming and research. The things that he researched were classified, and I don't have a good grasp of what he discovered. I know that if we read "Journey Into Madness" by Gordon Thomas, in a couple of places in his book he makes fun of Dr. Cameron. He says that Cameron's grants hadn't produced any tangible value to the CIA or that there was a Dr. Gottlieb who was supposedly investigating the doctor and questioning whether Cameron had done anything to help the agents. I consider those kinds of statements the typical kind of CIA disinformation that is put out. They typically say "we did research but we didn't find anything of value." I have a hard time believing that Dr. Cameron who was on the leading edge of mind control and who was in touch with the top mind control programmers of his day and learning techniques from them - that the man was of no value to the CIA. I am not trying to put down Gordon Thomas' book because I would recommend it to people, but this is the type of disinformation that spews forth from so many different sources. Why was he head of the prestigious American Psychiatric Association, and the World Psychiatric Association? Why was he put in charge of so many very powerful organizations by the establishment if he was so worthless to their agenda?

Wayne Morris:

Just in a general sense, what were the types of institutions that were involved in the development of mind control across North America?

Fritz Springmeier:

Good question. I can quote them. Admiral Stansfield Turner, on August 3, 1977, told a Senate Investigating Committee that in the USA, prisons, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, 44 medical colleges, American universities and corporations were helping the CIA carry out the mind control experiments. I believe that using the word "experiments" is a little bit of disinformation. This was operational programming. They were taking the people who were coming out of these mind control experiments and using them. They were far more than just experiments. But those were the kind of institutions that were assisting in the programming.

Wayne Morris:

Can you make a statement about the role of psychiatry in the development of mind control?

Fritz Springmeier:

They have been very important to develop the mind control from being more what we would call training to being placed on a very scientific basis. There has been extensive research into the mind by psychiatrists. That research has been invaluable for developing the mind control technologies. Behavior modification (Skinner, Pavlov, etc) findings were directly implemented in teaching various alters to do certain things. If you read our Volume 2 book and the Deeper Insights book, I go into how each of the different alters are created (ie. Gatekeepers). At some point a Gatekeeper alter will be taken to a door and then using behavior modification techniques, severely torturing the alter, they are taught not to step beyond the door, but hold their place at that door. The research that shows that this type of training would be effective came from behavior modification and psychiatrists.

Wayne Morris:

Do you think that some psychiatrists may have been unwitting in helping develop this technology?

Fritz Springmeier:

There are several different levels of participation. People who are just plain evil; people who are coerced, blackmailed, mind control victims themselves; then a level of people below that who are unwitting dupes of the system. My father was never part of the system in the sense of he never joined any occult societies, he is not in favour of a New World Order, philosophically he's not aligned with them. He's just somebody who believes in science and he believes science can help the world. He wanted to help the world, make a positive difference. The Illuminati deflect what these researchers want for good and use it for evil purposes. I have a hard time with one scientist I was talking with earlier this year. He developed biological weapons for the USa (viruses, anthrax, etc.). He said knowledge is neutral, it is neither good nor bad. It's how it's used. I am thinking in my head, "are you that stupid, that you don't realize the people you are working for and who are going to use this stuff are going to use it for evil? ..." A lot of these scientists are so focused on the tiny little details of what they are trying to research, and ego plays a part in this. They want to discover something - their ego, pride, concentration in the research doesn't allow them to step back and say "what is this going to be used for?"

Wayne Morris:

The information that we have been talking about has been quite depressing, and I think a lot of people are going to be affected by it. What message of hope do you have for people after learning about all of this?

Fritz Springmeier:

There's two sides to a coin, and we have been talking about the negative side of the coin. The positive side is that a lot of the technologies that have been developed could actually be used for the advancement of mankind, to benefit mankind. Another positive is that in spite of the forces that are trying to destroy humanity, there are a lot of positive forces. There are quite a number of independent researchers, and they haven't gotten much media attention except ridicule - people have been researching free energy, and they have made a lot of advancements - so the common person would not be dependent upon the establishment for any of its energy. Another area of research is alternative medicine, amazing discoveries that really liberate people from establishment medicine. You have the internet and photocopy machines which have given the common person the ability to transmit and gather a lot of information without being part of the establishment. You have home schooling. There are developments that are taking place that do not rely on the establishment monopolies. These monopolies are fragile and they can be broken.

Another positive is that in spite of the monumental power they have, people like myself have been able to slip through their control cracks and have been able to free people from the deepest depths of the organizations. I have been able to get out so much information exposing their methods and their agenda. I am saying this to show these people are not invincible.

Wayne Morris:

I would like to thank you very much for joining us on this radio series. It's been absolutely fascinating talking to you, and I would like to thank you for bringing this information out.

Fritz Springmeier:

I very much appreciate this chance, and I want to congratulate your courage and your love for the truth in bringing this to the Canadian and the American people.

Wayne Morris:

Stay tuned next week for an interview with Cisco Wheeler, Fritz Springmeier's co-author, and former Illuminati family mind controlled slave. CBC TV is going to be airing a few productions on mind control this week. The Fifth Estate is supposed to be airing an investigation which was supposed to be about Montreal psychiatrist, Dr. Pivnicki (Mila Mulroney's father) and his role in covering up the Cameron mind control experiments. I am not sure if that's what is on this week - I don't know if they had to change that due to Brian Mulroney's attempt to clear his name. Also one week today, Sunday January 11, 1998 at 8-10pm will be Part One of The Sleep Room, which is a documentary based on Anne Collins' book "In The Sleep Room" based on Dr. Ewen Cameron and his CIA funded experiments on his psychiatric patients at the Allen Memorial Psychiatric Institute in Montreal. Dr. Cameron was the target of two lawsuits against the CIA and the Canadian government by his psychiatric patients who had been unwittingly involved in his experiments which involved electroshock, sensory deprivation, psychic driving, drugs, reportedly in an effort to wipe out a person's mind and create a new personality.

Now throughout this series we have heard an even darker side to Dr. Ewen Cameron's mind control experiments, and that his involvement in trauma conditioning of children. This extreme form of mind control perpetrated against children involved creating and controlling multiple identities through torture, physical, emotional and sexual abuse, hypnosis, drugs, electroshock and structural programming. We have heard from Claudia Mullen and her testimony given to the US Presidential Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments in 1995 about how Dr. Cameron would electroshock her after being involved in an experiment or sexual blackmail operation when she was still a child. We heard from Lynne Moss-Sharman who was experimented on and programmed by Dr. Ewen Cameron along with Dr. Jose Delgado, another well-known CIA mind control doctor, and we heard most recently from Fritz Springmeier claiming that Dr. Cameron was an associate of Dr. Josef Mengele and that Mengele had been smuggled out of Europe to work in the USA, continuing his work refining mind control for the CIA. Information from his work has Ewen Cameron and Josef Mengele working together creating mind control operatives.

Now, is the CBC going to deal with these allegations and the testimony in their upcoming documentary? Well, we will see ...

You have been listening to the International Connection on CKLN.

[CBC introduction to In The Sleep Room]

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