## CKLN-FM Mind Control Series -- Part 5

## Interview With:

## Valerie Wolf
Claudia Mullen
Chris deNicola Ebner

Back to CKLN Series Table of Contents

From the Ryerson CKLN FM (88.1 in Toronto) Mind Control Series

Wayne Morris:

Good morning, and welcome to another International Connection. We are continuing with our series on Mind Control. This is the 12th in a series and this will be continuing another five months in this time slot. Today we are going to be hearing an interview with Valerie Wolf, Claudia Mullen and Chris deNicola Ebner just after they had given testimony of mind control and radiation experimentation done to them as children to the Presidential Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments. Valerie Wolf is the therapist of Claudia Mullen and Chris deNicola Ebner, both survivors of torture and abuse as part of mind control experiments conducted by the U.S. government. We heard six weeks ago on this show, the actual testimony given at the Radiation Hearings. Today we are going to hear an interview conducted by Will Snodgrass, Chemical Injury Communication Network, a local cable TV producer from Missoula, Montana. Claudia and Chris describe how the mind control doctors induced dissociation or multiple personalities through traumatization and abuse for the purpose of programming the personalities to perform various military intelligence and criminal acts. You are listening to CKLN, 88.1. And now, that interview.

Will Snodgrass:

Valerie, you testified today at the President's Council on Radiation along with two of your clients, and a story unfolded there which America should hear. Probably many Americans will not believe when they hear it. In your work as a professional therapist, what have you found with respect to children and experimentation?

Valerie Wolf:

Basically what we as therapists across the country are finding are a group of clients that formally were considered untreatable, that based on recent information we're finding are reporting having been subjects in mind control experimentation performed by the government, the CIA and the military establishment ... probably from about the late 1940's until middle 80's and may even be going on today.

Will Snodgrass:

Is there any official documentation of these protocols or these experiments?

Valerie Wolf:

There is some documentation of it. There was a Commission on Mind Control in the late 70's but it mostly focused on the use of adults, prisoners, and mental patients. What got missed were the children who were being used in these experiments, and the reason I think that the children were being missed was because they were either too young to speak out at that time, or they were still involved in the experimentation.

Will Snodgrass:

When did you receive either written documentation or electromagnetic documentation about this? Is this something that is circulating within the group of therapists nationally?

Valerie Wolf:

Basically the information was released at the Eastern Regional Conference on Multiple Personality and Dissociative Disorders in June of 1992. Those of us that were working with severely dissociated clients listened to the information and followed up with it. I myself had had contact with seven clients who report being subjects in these experiments. And the way that I have proceeded is that I have deliberately not read any of the documentation or read any of the books because there are several books written on this. Basically what I have done is as my clients have emerged, I have sent my information to Alan Scheflin who is an expert in this area to validate memories, and I have done that so that he will call me back and say "do you know about such and such?" ... I have no clue about any of this. And these clients are real sensitive to everything so that if I knew something, I don't want to cue them or give them information or contaminate their memories, so basically the memories are coming absolutely with total free recall. There is no cueing from me. In fact, they will tell you that I basically say very little. I don't feed them any information as far as what is going on, only as their memories come up and to validate the memories.

Will Snodgrass:

Mr. Scheflin has filed some Freedom of Information (FOIA) requests, we heard that today at the Hearing. Have there been documents provided by the government to him?

Valerie Wolf:

It has been very difficult. He spent twenty years of his life gathering information on this. A lot of the FOIA requests have been slowed down or denied. It's very difficult to get this information and that was one of the reasons we appeared at the Radiation Commission today, because in an attempt to ask them to recommend an investigation of this, and also to help us open the files and get the information we need. We need to be responsible ... we want to know if what these clients are saying is true. Now, what I have found in terms of the stuff I have sent and other therapists have found, is that some of this can be verified. And that they (clients) are telling the truth, and some of the information they are supplying is not published anywhere, it can only come if you file FOIA requests and obviously these clients haven't done that. But these clients know things that there is no way they could know unless they went through the experience.

Claudia Mullen:

There are things that can't even be found through FOIA like the identity of people, their description ...

Will Snodgrass:

Your two clients here, Claudia and Chris, met through your practice. Can you tell me a little bit about the encounter and the discovery that both of you had been involved in CIA or U.S. government experimentation? How did this come to light between the two of you as clients?

Claudia Mullen:

Between Chris and I? There wasn't any connection between Chris and I. I hadn't seen her for two years, and the last time I had seen her, I was being treated for PTSD for something that happened to me that had nothing to do with this. I had no memory of being a victim of this. Chris had no memory. As far as Chris and I, I didn't know she was ... although I knew she was Valerie's patient, I didn't know that she was recovering memories just like I was because she doesn't discuss one patient with another, one client with another. So, there isn't any connection between Chris and I other than the fact that we have the same therapist.

Will Snodgrass:

But you did have the same doctor at one time? Dr. Greene ...

Claudia Mullen:

Well ... yes ...

Pendergast:

Chris, would you like to talk about Dr. Greene?

Chris Denicola Ebner:

Dr. Greene performed radiation as well as mind control and drug experiments on me between 1966 and 1976 and it was done out in the desert and he worked really on mind control with me. He did use radiation experiments on me as far as I remember him doing some radiation experiments on my uterus and my chest, throat, neck ... things like that. He also ... but his main objective with me was to turn me into ... actually to gain total control of my mind and to split it apart into as many different areas as he could, and develop me into a spy assassin and as I resisted him more and more, he turned it all against me. He used different sorts of trauma techniques and basically trauma, drugs, messages, post-hypnotic suggestions and then more trauma. Basically what he wanted was to get me to self destruct.

Will Snodgrass:

Valerie, how do we know that the CIA was targeting certain children, certain types of children? How did they recruit if in fact that's what they were doing?

Valerie Wolf:

The information I have is that what they were looking for was children who were already traumatized, who were already abused, children who were very intelligent, children who had good memories. What they would do is look in clinics. A lot of the kids were in military families. In Chris's case her father had military connections and he actually started grooming her. You have to understand we are talking Cold War mentality when this started, and we forget about that sometimes. In terms of fighting Communism ... the end justifies the means ... and that kind of thought was available at that time. So there were people who truly thought they were doing something for their country. There were also people who were really sadistic, and people who were pedophiles, that hurt their children. So what they were looking for were kids that were already abused.

Will Snodgrass:

Claudia, what are your earliest recollections of this process? How did the government select you, and what do you remember about it?

Claudia Mullen:

Well I was brought to Tulane University by my mother. I had been abused since the time I was two years old. She was friends with the Chairman of the Board, Mr. Fenner, and she asked for a recommendation of a top psychiatrist in New Orleans, and Dr. Robert G. Heath who was Chairman of the Department at Tulane Medical School was recommended. As a favour, he took me on as a private client. He said he didn't treat children, but as a favour he would make an exception and he said he would treat me for free. My mother signed a consent for anything he would deem necessary, and he came up with a diagnosis of childhood schizphrenia and aberrant behavior so he had something to put down in medical records. What he was doing actually was, he had already agreed to receive I believe something along the lines of $300,000 over so many years for Tulane in exchange for using a whole ward of patients, or subjects, as many as he could get, and conduct experiments on them. He was already involved in research on brain mapping, doing all sorts of brain experiments and he was considered one of the top in his field and so they went to him and asked, and I just happened to get sent there at the age of seven. >From then I kept going back for treatments, I was told. I would not recall what had happened when I was there. Dr. Heath would tell me what had happened. I would go home and the next they needed me, they would call my mother and she would send me back for treatment. I would go over there and the same thing ... I wouldn't remember when I went back home. In between I had no memory.

Will Snodgrass:

Valerie, you had two clients who had come to you in adult life with some very very serious problems. You had some information about programming. Had you at that time put two and two together about these two clients? Did you suspect that they had been part of a government program? What happened?

Valerie Wolf:

Actually when each of them became my client, I had absolutely no idea. The way that I discovered it with Chris was that a couple of months after I got the information, she started showing some of the behaviors that had been described and started the downhill slide that usually led in these kinds of clients to the hospital ... so out of sheer desperation I figured, well this is worth a try ... started some very very careful gentle inquiries, and uncovered ... it was like Whammo ... there it was.

Will Snodgrass:

What did you find? What was displayed to you that led you to believe ...

Valerie Wolf:

Well, basically what she was showing was this really compulsive behavior to hurt herself, really compulsive behavior to kill herself, self distruct kinds of stuff. And it was like a repetitive thing ... and the puzzling thing about it was, Chris really didn't want to die. So why she was doing these kinds of things? So it was like it was something that was separate from her. Plus she had all these years of therapy, and good therapy, before she came to me. Ten years of therapy before she came to me, and she had had good therapy and she had made progress but not to the degree we would expect. So those are the kinds of things that were talked about, and those are the kinds of things that I have come to understand. When you have good therapy and clients aren't making good progress you are missing something ... and when I started making very indirect, non-leading kinds of inquiries, basically what happened was we got into memories of electric shock, memories of codes, things like that, that we started working with. But there had been no mention of her being a government subject and I never brought it up with her although I knew that's what it meant, and we were working it through therapeutically but I had never said a word to her. And a couple of months ago, maybe four or five months ago, after Chris had finished a memory, she asked for a piece of paper and pencil and started writing out "CIA Confidential Memos" and I had never mentioned anything about CIA involvement to her.

As far as Claudia is concerned, she came to me with the same kind of thing where ... she is bright, she is verbal, she was working real hard in therapy, we were working through stuff, and she ended up in the hospital which is unusual for the kinds of things ... I mean, I have years of experience dealing with abuse and these kinds of things. One day ... after about nine months of therapy ... she came in with a piece of paper with words written all over it, and in the middle was "MKULTRA" ... (one of the names of one of the projects associated with the mind control). That's when I knew she was involved. I had also never said anything to her about it.

Will Snodgrass:

Claudia, at the time you brought this document in, did you know what it was or where it came from?

Claudia Mullen:

I had no idea of what it meant. I didn't know what it stood for. It was just something that started coming forward in my memory, and I would get bits and pieces. I would remember the names of doctors and I would say to Valerie, "Have you ever heard of this man? Who is he?" and Valerie would say, "I don't know." I started remembering treatment. It was just bits and pieces. It wasn't like ... I couldn't remember whole weeks at a time ... I couldn't remember. I had always gaps in my childhood ... I couldn't remember gaps of time that were lost. I didn't know why. I came to understand that I was abused by my mother. I assumed that's why I went into treatment was for PTSD, and then eventually I learned I was abused by my mother, but I thought that was the extent of it. I didn't even recall ever being at a University Medical Centre, never remembered going there. Never thought I had been to Washington, D.C. but I had.

Will Snodgrass:

Do both of you now remember going into laboratories or clinics or being involved in immersion therapies, or dark rooms, those kinds of things?

Chris Denicola Ebner:

I remember being in a laboratory in 1966. I was four years old, and I was strapped down on a table, on my back. I was naked, I had electrodes all over my body ... my head, temples, chest, stomach, back, legs. Dr. Greene was there, and there were other children in the room as well. It was a laboratory. At Tennessee University. I remember he had what looked like an overhead projector, it had a red flashing light. He was saying that he was going burn images in my brain and I would do whatever he told me to do, and how the images would go deeper and deeper into my brain. Just consistently repeating the information along with electric shock and he would use the electroshock and then the imagery and then more shock, and drugs to make me drowsy. Sometimes I would pass out ... yes, I do remember that. I remember being in a dark room as well. Actually a lot of the experiments took place in a dark room out in the desert in Tucson, Arizona. Most of the experiments took place there with Dr. Greene.

Will Snodgrass:

People today at the Hearing asked, "where were your parents? how could this happen? how could you be taken out from your home or the place where you lived and brought into this situation ...

Chris Denicola Ebner:

My parents were divorced when I was around four years old. My Mom had no knowledge, but my father, Donald Richard Ebner, was involved in the experiments. With Dr. Greene and he would sneak me out of the house in the middle of the night. I remember feeling drugged in the house and these men coming in and they would sneak me out of the house, and my Mom would be asleep. That's how he gained access to me, and visits, things like that. They did most of the experiments in the middle of the night. He just found his way into the home. My Mom had no knowledge of it at the time. She divorced him because I was afraid of him, and she couldn't figure out what was wrong. He had to be sneaky in order to get a hold of me, and that's how he would do that. He would just ... he got the key from me ... and he would sneak in in the middle of the night, and drag me out, and bring me back before my Mom woke up, and that's when most of the experiments took place. I have talked to my Mom since then, since the memories have surfaced, and she confirms that she absolutely believes that he was capable and did in fact participate in these experiments.

Will Snodgrass:

Was he a member of the U.S. military? (Yes) And do you remember other military people who were coming into your home at that time or that he would associate with, or talk with?

Chris Denicola Ebner:

No. The only person I know that was my Dad, Don Ebner. I can tell you names of memos that I saw with people from ... the military and Internal Affairs ... memos that I saw in Dr. Greene's office. Off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you the other military names.

Will Snodgrass:

Claudia, do you remember Dr. Greene?

Claudia Mullen:

Very well. The first time I met him was, from my understanding now, most of the time he kept himself disguised and used different names depending on what part of the country he was in. At Tulane, he saw no reason to do that I guess, and he would wear a white coat just like any other doctor, and he would wear a name tag, Dr. L. Wilson Greene. But he didn't like anyone calling him anything but "Doctor". He didn't even like being called Dr. Greene. I knew him from the years 1957 until about five years before he died in 1988.

Will Snodgrass:

So Dr. Greene was operating at Tulane University and also at Kansas?

Valerie Wolf:

And at Tucson. Dr. Greene has been reported -- he is probably the most consistent figure or doctor that's been reported by almost everybody. He went under the names of Dr. Green, Dr. Greenbaum, Greentree, Greenberg. But always with the Green in his name. He travelled throughout the country, training people, doing consultation and also doing stuff on his own, I think, as Chris experienced.

Chris Denicola Ebner:

He used disguise with me as well. I never saw him without a surgical mask, usually something on his head, and all I ever saw was a little bit of the black rimmed glasses and whatever. He was just a sadistic, evil man, and he hated me because I would not comply with what he wanted me to do.

Will Snodgrass:

We have memories that have surfaced here at some point in time. Did both of you, or either of you, recall these memories before you got into therapy? Were there some memories at all of what had happened to you?

Claudia Mullen:

Well, there would be times in my life over the years ... I guess the last time I was actually involved in the projects was 1983. After that I was supposed to be monitored by a family doctor who was a family friend who was to keep track and make sure I didn't get any memory back. And if I was, he was to report it to them, to Dr. Greene. I had started to get somatic symptoms. I would end up in the hospital and they couldn't find any reason for the illness. They would call in this Dr. Brown and he would notify the other doctors and they would make sure my amnesia was reinforced.

Will Snodgrass:

Valerie what is the significance of these organic symptoms that presented?

Valerie Wolf:

Basically what you have to understand is how trauma memories are encoded and that is sort of a technical term for how memories are remembered. There has been a lot of contraversy lately about research on memory. There has been a lot of research done on memory, and what they are finding is a lot of the information that is in the public is about normal memory. One of the things that those of us who work with traumatic memory have found is that it is very different, even as to where it is stored in the brain. Regular memories are stored in the part of the brain called the hippocampus.

Trauma memories - I saw a recent article - are stored in a more primitive part of the brain called the amygdala. Basically what happens is if there is information to remember, and there is pain associated with the information, then the two get stored together in the brain. In order to remember the information, you also have to remember the pain. What happens with these clients is that there was so much pain from the electric shock, from the other things they did, or drug effects - because sometimes you get drug effect or very drugged kind of memory - but in terms of the physical pain - Claudia for example. In order for her to "remember", the first thing she is going to remember is the pain ... wherever it was in her body. It is stored with the information. If you intervene and reinforce the amnesia, the pain before the information comes, you don't remember the information. In order for them to remember, they have to go through the pain first and then the information comes.

Will Snodgrass:

So is it fair to say then that the U.S. government was using the barrier of pain as a barrier to memory?

Valerie Wolf:

Absolutely. And it is difficult, hard work. These two people are extremely courageous. They come in and they know that when they are working, they are going to be in a great deal of pain and they are willing to go through it, because they want to be free. And I want to say the purpose of treatment here is not to uncover memories. The purpose of treatment here is to undo the messages they were given and there were a lot of them. I have been a lot of thinking lately as to why some people have to remember and some people don't ... even though they have both been traumatized. And what I realize is when someone is traumatized, if the perpetrator is silent - when someone is traumatized, they basically go into a trance - you have to get away from it somehow so you separate from yourself and you go into trance. If the perpetrator is silent, then nothing much really gets in. Then those clients where the messages are separate from the actual trauma really don't have to remember the trauma. But those clients where the messages are part of the trauma have to remember the trauma. The point of therapy is to get to the context, to get to the conclusions that people drew about themselves and the world from the trauma. To get to the things were said to them. The things that were said to the mind control subjects in the experimentation were deliberately said to undermine their personalities, to make them self destructive, to make them not remember. That's what we want to get to. It so happens we have the memories and I try to validate and verify where I can, but again the thing is to restore their functioning.

Will Snodgrass:

How many children do we believe were taken into these government programs for these purposes?

Valerie Wolf:

Honestly, we really don't know, but just considering the numbers of people who are coming forward, our guess is thousands.

Will Snodgrass:

Are they remembering the rooms, electrodes, these kinds of things?

Valerie Wolf:

The memories are extremely consistent. In preparation for my testimony I sort of talked with a few people, word got out and almost 40 therapists called me from all over the country - from California to New York - all over the country giving me information and supplying back up documentation, statements from clients all over the country. It is remarkably consistent with the report. And these people don't know each other. They haven't talked with each other. For example, I am the only one in my area, that I am aware of, doing this work. I have talked to one other person, but I haven't really talked to other people nor have they talked to other people. So, were are not sharing the information, we are hearing this stuff independently.

Will Snodgrass:

Chris, how did your memories start to come out and what can you tell us about your experience? In other words, you have told us about the rooms, about Dr. Greene. How did you start to remember these things, and in detail? In a synopsis, as much as you can share with us, what happened to you?

Chris Denicola Ebner:

I had no memory of anything until I was about 22 years old and that's when I started to remember my Dad sexually abusing me. Then moving in - it seems that I first started to uncover the easier to handle memories. The sex abuse memories were easier to handle than the mind control electrodes and all of that kind of thing - the Kansas City thing I was telling you about when I was four years old - that didn't come until later. I didn't remember that until maybe three months ago. I started to remember the sexual abuse and then it went into remembering that I had memories of just being tortured and actually, a lot of pain, Dr. Greene inflicting a lot of pain and a lot of different experiments. It's hard to wrap it all up in a nice little ball for you ...

Will Snodgrass:

Can you describe some of the things Dr. Greene did to you? You mentioned a doll today.

Chris Denicola Ebner:

He performed a radiation experiment on me in the black room. It was approximately 1975. I was strapped down on my back, naked, and I had electrodes all over my body and there was a machine, and parts of it looked like an xray machine you might see in a dental office and he put three across my stomach and pointing at my vagina and he told me I had the choice of either going outside and killing a doll, which could have been a child, or I could not do that and be a murderer as far as killing unborn children - I would never be able to have children. He was trying to get me to go kill the doll, so to speak, because he was training me to be a spy assassin and I refused. I didn't want to have any part of killing anything, a doll or a thing. So I refused, and my father was involved with this experiment and they went around a corner and they flipped on a switch. I heard a drone sound as the machine started up and then a buzzing sound, and I felt pain throughout my body all three times. Then they - it was because of the electric shock - they were shocking me at the same time they were doing the radiation - they came back out and said that I was a worthless, insignificant bitch, and that I was a murderer, and instilled all of these negative messages along with more electric shock. After the radiation I felt nauseated and threw up, and Dr. Greene got mad about that and started shocking me and after that he gave me a shot, and next thing I knew I was out in the desert strapped down on a table with more intensive electric shock to the point where I would pass out, and continuing with those messages. Knowing that I was a good person, to think that I was insignificant, that I was worthless, that I was a murderer would be devastating to me. Basically he wanted me to commit suicide because I wouldn't do what he wanted me to do. I fought him all the way.

Will Snodgrass:

Claudia, do you remember your experiences?

Claudia Mullen:

Oh yes. There are so many. Like I said, I was tested at Tulane and at several other places outside of New Orleans, and then once they decided I could become part of the projects - and they had a series of projects, the Umbrella project, and the Bluebird which became Artichoke and then came MKULTRA and each one on down the line. Each one had a different purpose. I was taken on train trips, planes - small planes to different military bases. I was taken to places out in the woods - I guess Tulane was the worst where I would receive intensive electric shock, isolation for days, sleep deprivation where they would attach electrodes to me and if I started to fall asleep, they would shock me - enough to wake me up. You couldn't sleep for days. The messages would start - "your mother doesn't love you, she left you here, your mother doesn't want you, you are too much trouble for her, you are a very evil child, you want to hurt people, you want to entice men." My adoptive father was very ill and he died when I was very young, so I was taught to take to older men and encouraged to become friendly with older men and eventually, when I was old enough, I was sent out into what they called the operational field and I would be photographed with government and agency officials (CIA), doctors who were consulted, heads of universities and private foundations - all under the chance that if the government funds started dwindling they wanted to be able to blackmail or coerce the men into making sure the projects continued. That was the ultimate goal. The projects had to continue at all costs. They had to train a certain amount of young females to go around and I was sent to a camp in Maryland for three weeks when I was nine years old, and that was my first training on how to sexually please men. I was through a training course, like a seminar. There were children of all ages - even younger than myself. Teenagers, young adult girls there. We were all assigned someone there, and at the end of three weeks, we were taught. They decided it was a success. It was a CIA project. It was called Imaginative Research. They had to give a name to it that they could release and document because they couldn't really put down what it really was. It came under the heading MKULTRA, project 74, and I was subject #3. I remember we were given a number. We were allowed to choose a name and after the three weeks I was sent home. For the next few years they worked on making sure I was amnesia controlled, making sure the amnesia barriers were in place so that if something should ever happen to me and the memories should ever start coming back, the pain would come first. I would seek help from the doctors who I was taught were the only people who could help me, the "good doctors". I was taught that doctors were the answer to everything. I had no reason to disbelieve that because every time I was sent home, I was told you are a good girl, you are cured, you are going to be just fine, you are going to grow up and have a lot of kids. I didn't even realize that they had taken that away from me. I didn't know I couldn't even bear children.

Will Snodgrass:

How did they do that?

Claudia Mullen:

Mainly by inserting things, electric shock, some of the testing they did. They just produced enough scar tissue that they blocked my fallopian tubes and I can't bear children.

Will Snodgrass:

You were tortured. (Yes) How many times?

Claudia Mullen: (Laughter from Claudia, Chris, Valerie about the question)

Uh ... from 1957 to 1983. I mean sometimes it would be for a week at a time. Sometimes it would be overnight. Sometimes it would be once a month. It just depended. They had to of course adapt to my school schedule. I went to a private Catholic girls' school, and I was taken out of school for periods of time. My mother would tell them I had to go visit relatives, or my father was very sick and I wanted to spend time with him ... my father was terminal. They had no reason to question my mother's motives. My mother was told by the doctors that I just needed to come back for some treatment. It would always coincide with times when the men could get away -- holidays. The CIA kept hotel rooms in two of the best hotels in New Orleans, and year around, they kept a suite. It was unique in that it had two bathrooms and one bathroom was where they kept the hidden cameras and I was actually shown the hidden cameras by three men who handled that part of it. They called him Captain George White - he was formerly a doctor. He used to be in the narcotics squad in California and then he became a doctor, and joined the CIA. And then there were two other men who worked with him. They would put me with the subjects who would be filmed (the men) and then when the men would come into town -- I am talking about local politicians, government officials -- anybody who they needed to possibly get something on, keep on file for future reference -- should they need to coerce this person into supporting the projects. Senators, congressmen, anything like that -- if they were in town, they were given this room. They had no reason to think there was anything strange about the room. It didn't look any different than any other room -- it was just one of the better suites in the two hotels. I was shown how the cameras were set up behind mirrors -- behind the mirrors which are in every hotel room, behind the dresser. They would sit there and they would film it and later on they would show me the films. And they would say, you don't want anyone to see this now do you? And that was one way of getting me to want to forget.

Will Snodgrass:

You mentioned the CIA -- you heard the word CIA again and again. From your memory, CIA type documents come up. You were listening as a child, and you heard things, and you saw things.

Claudia Mullen:

They started when I was very young like I said, and they knew that they would be able to produce this amnesia. They were so certain that the amnesia would hold for as long as they wanted it to, that they had no reason to hid anything from me, plus they considered me too young to understand what they they are talking about. You've got to understand, it is very important, to keep the child you are working with isolated from anyone else. So that no one asks them any questions. So that they learn to trust just the doctors, scientists, researchers, the consultants. They have to learn to trust these people. These are the doctors that are helping them. But you can't be around even nurses in a hospital. They would always keep me very close by and they would put me on a sofa and give me a blanket and say, "take a nap" and give me something to make me sleep. And I was told "this is very important to the President, he would prefer you not to look at the faces". I thought that the President knew about all this. I thought I was helping my country. I was told "this is to help stop Communism" "we need to do something to help stop Communism".

Will Snodgrass:

You were how old?

Claudia Mullen:

When I was first told this I when I was nine and I went to the Deep Creek Cabins in Maryland. That's when I was taught I was going to be part of this project, I had been accepted into this project, that I had been accepted into this project that would help the government stop Communism. At that time the Cold War was on, and it was very important. We were even taught in schools about Communists. They had reason to think they had to hide anything from me, so they would have conversations about the projects, about so-and-so - what he's working on, where he is, where he is from, they would call each other by name. They would have suitcases with their nametags on them, briefcases. I met with Richard Helms who was Deputy Director of the CIA for a long time. I met with him lots of times. I mean I got to know them all on a first-name basis. They would say, "call me Uncle". Of course, every now and then they would expect "a favour" but then you would be assured they were not being filmed. Somehow they managed to film almost everything except Dr. Martin Orne - he's the only one who never got on film.

Will Snodgrass:

We're talking about sexual intercourse here, with very young women?

Claudia Mullen:

Yes.

Will Snodgrass:

How young?

Claudia Mullen:

Well there were children younger than myself, as young as five years old.

Will Snodgrass:

Sexual intercourse?

Claudia Mullen:

Actually it was anal intercourse until you got to a certain age. Until you got sent out into the field as, you know, an operative -- to target these officials and get them on film. The idea being they wouldn't want a child who had been abused over a long period of time. They would want a child who was innocent and pure, and this was your first time. You were taught other ways to please men -- anal intercourse, oral sex, everything else.

Will Snodgrass:

>From memory do you remember the names of some of these projects you may have seen written or heard, spoken?

Claudia Mullen:

Well, under the Umbrella Folder, the first one was Artichoke which could produce amnesia and also to develop polygraph techniques. That's where Dr. Martin Orne came in. He was supposed to be an expert on polygraph. He worked with the Technical Science Division of Edgewood Arsenal as did Dr. L. Wilson Greene. There was MKDELTA, MKNAOMI which was germ warfare. They were laughing about how they would drop canisters of toxins -- they had no idea what effect it was going to have -- they would just wait five or ten years and see what the effects on this neighbourhood was -- a poor neighbourhood. I was told about using retarded children in East New Orleans and exposing them to large doses of massive radiation and they saw no reason not to use them because they were already retarded, they just wanted to see what anamolies would develop over the years.

Will Snodgrass:

You were allowed to testify today, I assume, because there was radiation involved. Can you tell us a little bit about your experiences with radiation?

Claudia Mullen:

Well I was exposed to not as much as a lot [of people]. I was exposed to a lot of x-rays because I was given physicals quite often to make sure I was kept healthy. They didn't want me to ever bear children, they wanted to make sure I would become sterile so they exposed me to radiation for that purpose I believe. Also to scare me. They never protected me in any way, they never covered me with any kind of lead apron or anything. But mainly I overheard about the large doses of radiation that were exposed to masses of people. I wasn't involved in that, I just overheard conversations. I received small doses of radiation. I was fortunate in that way.

Will Snodgrass:

Chris, today you talked about being in a cage and escaping and some of the documents that you saw?

Chris Denicola Ebner:

Yes. That took place between 1972 and 1976 and basically Dr. Greene had taught me many tecqhniques as to how to be a spy, and I didn't want to have anything to do with them and I was angry and they would put me in a cage after traumatizing me in some form or another. There were times when they careless during this period of time, and whenever physically possible I snuck into Dr. Greene's office and looked at files. These files contained project, sub-project, subject and experiment names for the CIA. I saw all of these different files at first, and they were all coded with different colour -- a purple sticker, something -- an orange colour. Some were on radiation. The one that I saw on radiation I opened it, and I had a photographic memory and remembered exactly what was written -- subject name, code number and then the names and some of the code numbers, experiment names, code numbers, and some of those names. I also remembered seeing memos to -- a subject name, code number, CIA classified, then a 6 digit number -- either to Frank Harris, Internal Affairs; from Trenton Cox, an alias that Dr. Greene used; also it would always say "confidential information" on it. Then there would be the code number again, the experiment name, and then subject, explanation, either successful or unsuccessful: and a brief summary of their findings on that subject in that particular experiment. The project, sub-project, subject and experiment names that I remembered, the memos - the CIA memos that I saw and had written out by memory, have not been verified at this point in time. They just recently surfaced within the last three months. So, I cannot say as would Claudia if the MKULTRA is verified. The names I have seen, and all the information that I have written out, typed out to give to the Committee to the Presidential Hearing today -- none of that has been verified by Alan Scheflin at this point. He hasn't had a chance to research it; however, he has been able to verify that the format and some of the terminology and some of the names such as Robert Levine, one of the people who was on one of the memos, he could verify the format -- he could verify that what I was remembering as far as memos -- maybe some of the project names -- but I don't know.

Claudia Mullen:

The project names had to change from time to time, you've got to understand. They couldn't keep the same project names because they had to get funding from different sources. The funding couldn't continue from the same source for any length of time. The government would only sponsor it until 1963 and then the President put a halt to it supposedly, so they started getting it from other sources, and then they would change the project names. They were constantly changing - there was Project OFTEN, Project CHATTER -- that was one of the early ones with a Dr. Went who was head of that, and that was to get interrogation techniques to get captured soldiers, POW'S to talk. The list went on and on -- I overheard so many names and sub-project numbers -- I remember the numbers. The ones having to do with sex had low numbers -- project #2, #3, #7, #12 -- they were mainly under Dr. James Hamilton. He was the head of those. He was one of the consultants. He didn't work at the CIA. He was a consultant to the CIA.

Chris Denicola Ebner:

And with me actually Dr. Greene started to go -- he really couldn't do it in the laboratories anymore as much -- so he went into kind of criminal type sex rings -- that's where he continued his experiments. That was more of his setting.

Will Snodgrass:

You mentioned Tucson earlier today and you describe drives that you took from one place to another. Would you talk about that a bit?

Chris Denicola Ebner:

Up until two and a half years ago (I am 32 years old now) so up until I was about 29 I would get calls from time to time and I would not remember the phone call. All I knew is that I would be driving to Tucson, Arizona from Calfifornia where I was living at the time. I didn't know why, my adrenalin was pumping, "I had to get there, I had to get there". That's all I knew is that I had to "get there". On one particular occasion I was supposed to arrive at a certain hotel at a certain day in time. I was able to somehow break it and turn around and drive home before I got there to the hotel. Yes, they monitored me up until that time.

Will Snodgrass:

Valerie, what are they doing?

Valerie Wolf:

Basically this is being reported across the country. There is a certain segment of these clients that were being followed or monitored. One of the things that they knew is that eventually the amnesia would break down and that they would need to do periodic check-ups and periodic reinforcements of the amnesia. So the people they had worked particularly hard with I think they assigned either relatives or family friends or people who were associated with the project but not really on the payroll of the CIA or the Army to monitor them. So if they showed any signs of having body memories that we talked about before, the pain or anything like that, then they could move in and reinforce the amnesia. I think one of the reasons that we are hearing more about this now and why there was so much interest in it two and a half years ago, is because it's been a long time, and I think the amnesia is breaking down.

Will Snodgrass:

The viewers are going to ask one question: WHY? Why would the U.S. government do that. Do you have an answer in your own mind?

Claudia Mullen:

Well, they thought, at first, that they had good intentions. They thought it was the best way to handle the Cold War. Dr. Greene himself said that he could come up with war without using guns, without using any kind of ... I mean, he worked at the Edgewood Arsenal and he wanted war without death. So he said contol the mind, control the behavior, and you've got war without death.

Chris Denicola Ebner:

I don't believe that fit with his personality, do you understand what I am saying? He really had an ulterior motive -- he was a very arrogant, cruel man to be able to do these things. And to feel power from doing this to people. He was into power.

Claudia Mullen:

That was probably to make him sound like was a wonderful man, a "scientist" [war without death] ... I believe like Chris does ... he was just a sadistic, cruel hearted man who enjoyed torturing children.

Valerie Wolf:

I think the other element here, and if we listen carefully to what they have said, is a lot of this was done for the personal gratification of the people involved. Sexual gratification, sadistic gratification, I think they had "fun". That's putting it very crudely but I think that's another reason it got continued as long as it did..

You have been listening to an interview by Will Snodgrass with Valerie Wolf, Claudia Mullen and Chris Denicola Ebner done the day just after they gave testimony about the Mind Control Experimentation on Children at the Presidential Human Radiation Experiment Hearings on March 15, 1995. You also heard them give accounts of the National Security Establishment being able, through mind control, to coerce prominent officials by sexually blackmailing them using children.

Wayne Morris, INERNATIONAL CONNECTION, CKLN 88.l Toronto Ontario)

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