## Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments

## 1995 Hearings

## Secret Experiments by the United States Government
on Involuntary, Unwitting Citizens
by Injection and Feeding of Radioactive Materials

The purposes of this 1995 testimony transcript posting are:

- To show the public that brutal, painful, life- destroying and sometimes fatal experiments were carried out, involuntarily, on innocent U.S. citizens without their knowledge. This supports the assertions by mind control victims of both the MKULTRA era and the current in-home/in-community psycho-electronic era that this is not only possible but has been proven and admitted to by government.
- To present some of the testimony at the hearings from mind control victims of the MKULTRA era who were allowed to testify at the 1995 radiation hearings, in particular, the torture of CHILDREN which was omitted by the U.S. Senate hearings on MKULTRA.
- To show that there is an urgent need for LAWS and political will to set up public controls over all classified human experimentation to prevent such atrocities in the future.

There are no such controls in place, and the United States has in fact EXITED the World War II Nuremburg Protocols which were supposed to prevent secret human experimentation in the future.

Senator John Glenn tried to replace the Nuremburg Protocols with his own Senate bill S.193, which died due to inaction after his being given a space shuttle ride and retiring. There are at present NO public oversight agencies monitoring CLASSIFIED (secret) human experimentation and this posting is to trumpet the need for this type of protection most urgently.

Eleanor White

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                             MAIN MENU

    CHILD TORTURE QUICK CLICKS:

    Child torture reference #1
    Child torture reference #2
    Child torture reference #3
    Child torture reference #4
    Child torture reference #5

    MKULTRA VICTIM QUICK CLICKS:

    These MKULTRA survivors are all from New Orleans LA, USA.

    Christine DeNicola
    Cynthia Mullen
    Valerie Wolf

    MKULTRA PERPETRATOR QUICK CLICKS:

    Dr. L. Wilson Green - reference #1
    Dr. L. Wilson Green - reference #2
    Sidney Gottlieb
    Martin Orne
    Dr. Charles Brown
    Dr. James Hamilton
    Dr. John Gittinger
    Dr. Robert G. Heath
    George White
    Morse Allen
    Dr. Steven Aldridge

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                             UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
                 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RADIATION EXPERIMENTS
                                 (PUBLIC MEETING)
                                Executive Chambers
                                 The Madison Hotel
                              15th and M Streets, NW
                                 Washington, D.C.
                                    Wednesday,
                                  March 15, 1995
                                     1:00 p.m.

              Advisory Committee Members:
              RUTH R. FADEN, PH.D., M.P.H. - CHAIR
              KENNETH R. FEINBERG, J.D.
              ELI GLATSTEIN, M.D.
              DR. JAY KATZ
              PATRICIA A. KING, J.D.
              SUSAN E. LEDERER, PH.D.
              RUTH MACKLIN, PH.D.
              LOIS L. NORRIS
              NANCY L. OLEINICK, PH.D.
              HENRY D. ROYAL, M.D.
              DUNCAN C. THOMAS, PH.D.
              REED V. TUCKSON, M.D.
              Staff Members:
              DAN GUTTMAN
              ANNA MASTROIANNI

                          A G E N D A
    AGENDA ITEM:                                 PAGE:
    Opening Remarks                                 3
      Ruth Faden, Chair
    Approval of Minutes of February 15-17,          7
      1995 Meeting
    Public Comment                                  9
    Dr. Ernest J. Sternglass                        9
     University of Pittsburgh
    Elmerine Whitfield Bell                        25
     Dallas, Texas
    Steve Schwartz                                113
      Washington, D.C.
    Cooper Brown                                   36
      National Association of Radiation Victims
    Dr. Oscar Rosen                                46
      National Association of Atomic Veterans
    Glenn Alcalay                                  61
      New York, New York
    Denise Nelson                                  70
      Bethesda, Maryland
    Chris DeNicola, Valerie Wolf                   77
      Claudia Mullen, New Orleans, Louisiana
    Suzzanne Starr                                102
      Chimayo, New Mexico
    Update on Knoxville Small Panel Meeting       124
      Nancy Oleinick
    Approach to the Final Report                  133
      Dan Guttman
    Meeting Adjourned
                          P R O C E E D I N G S
    1:00 p.m.
                            Opening Remarks
    DR. FADEN:  Good morning.  Excuse me.  I'm used to the
    meeting starting in the morning.  Good afternoon.
    We have Phil Caplan from the White House to open the
    meeting, please, officially.

    MR. CAPLAN:  Good afternoon.  As the designated federal
    official for the Advisory Committee, I declare this meeting open.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you.  Thank you, Phil.
    I can't decide if we're happier to see him in the beginning, when
    the meeting starts, or at the end when he closes it.  When is he
    more welcomed.
    Well, welcome to everyone here.  This is the 12th
    meeting.  Is it the 12th meeting?  Yes, the 12th meeting.  Okay.
    Scary thought.  This is the 12th meeting of the Advisory
    Committee on Human Radiation Experiments.  Welcome, everyone
    here.  We've had a change of venue.  So, I trust everybody could
    find The Madison.  We were almost getting to feel at home in the
    last hotel we were in, and we're now here.

    We have a very packed agenda.  The meeting begins this
    afternoon and goes through all day Thursday and all day Friday.
    It's been typical for me to start the meetings with a kind of
    quick overview of what we were hoping to accomplish in this
    particular meeting, and let me just do that, run down and go
    straight to our important subject for today, which is Public
    Comment.
    One objective of today's meeting, as is true for all
    our meetings and for our small panel meetings throughout the
    country, is to hear from members of the public, anyone who wishes
    to tell us things that they think we need to hear.  This is very
    important to us, always has been very important to us.
    We will hear later this afternoon a report from Nancy
    Oleinick, and Henry represented the committee at a small panel
    meeting at Knoxville, and we'll hear the results of that later
    this afternoon, and, in addition, we have given over the bulk of
    this afternoon to a public comment period, and we have a
    substantial list of people who have taken time out of their lives
    to come and talk to us, and we are grateful that they have done
    that, and we are looking forward to hearing from all of you.
    So, this afternoon is pretty much given over to our
    hearing what members of the public want us to hear.  We will have
    a public comment period, and Nancy and Henry will give us a
    report of what was heard at the Knoxville meeting, and then we
    will begin a discussion of how we're going to tackle the actual
    processing and thinking, committee writing or responding to
    drafts of the final report as they're emerging.
    So, we're going to do some housekeeping basically this
    afternoon, if we have time, and clearly there's a possibility
    that we may run short.
    We will also hear tomorrow afternoon -- tomorrow
    morning, excuse me, from Senator Wellstone, who will be making
    some comments to us based on some events that have occurred in
    his state that he thinks bear on the work of the committee.
    After that, the rest of the meeting, Thursday and
    Friday, is given over to this committee's deliberations.  We have
    a real shortage of time left, and we have some very tough things
    that as a committee we need to deliberate together.
    We will have two reports from the Contemporary Projects
    that are on-going, and they will occur Friday morning.  So, we
    will be updated on the progress of the subject interview study
    and the research proposal review project, but -- and we will also
    hear on Thursday afternoon from the chair of a committee being
    sponsored by the National Academy of Sciences, looking at
    radiation-related research in the state of Alaska in the '50s.
    We heard a little bit about it from some public
    representatives of the North Slope Borough in Alaska, and we will
    be hearing more about that Thursday afternoon, but with the
    exception of the items that I just mentioned, we're going to
    spend the bulk of tomorrow and Friday deliberating about possible
    recommendations that this committee may wish to make, and I want
    to signal to our members of the public that are here and to
    ourselves that we should realize that these are discussions.
    We are not going to reach any conclusions about
    recommendations yet.  That would be premature.  It would clearly
    be inappropriate or imprudent, I'm not sure what the right term
    is, for us to be finalizing recommendations when we haven't yet
    completed our analyses.
    So, the idea here is that these are recommendations,
    drafts of recommendations, both forward-looking and backward-
    looking recommendations, for the committee to begin to -- we have
    been -- for the committee to continue to debate and discuss and
    examine, so we can see what recommendations look promising, what
    recommendations should be further developed, what additional
    information we might want to review before we can conclude as to
    whether we want to have this be a recommendation of the committee
    or not.
    So, we will not be calling for closure, that is, will
    the committee recommend this, yes or no, but for debate and
    discussion and deliberation by committee members about the
    recommendations, and we will obviously hold off and finalize our
    recommendations only after we've deliberated as much as we can
    our analyses of the task before us.
    So, that said, we have one piece of business before we
    move immediately into the Public Comment period, and that is
    approval of the minutes of the February 15th to 17th meeting.
    Approval of Minutes of February 15-17, 1995, Meeting

    DR. FADEN:  Are there any comments or questions or
    corrections for the record of the minutes of the February
    meeting?
    (No response)

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you.  Is there a second to the
    approval?
    COMMITTEE MEMBER:  Second.

    DR. FADEN:  All in favor.
    (Chorus of ayes)

    DR. FADEN:  Any opposed?
    (No response)

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you.  The minutes of the February
    15th to 17th, 1995, meeting then have been approved.  I just do
    that a little bit out of order to get it out of the way.  I know
    that's one thing that was done.
             Public Comment

    DR. FADEN:  With that, we're going to move to Public
    Comment period.  It looks as if we have nine people who are here.
    We have asked that our public presenters try to keep their
    comments, if they possibly can, to 10 minutes.  That leaves the
    committee opportunity to ask the presenter questions, and this
    has always turned out to be very important to the committee.  It
    allows us to learn more from the person than we might otherwise.
    We appreciate that sometimes it's extremely difficult
    to keep important comments to 10 minutes, but we would express
    our appreciation for those of you who are able to do so and also
    as a courtesy to the public commenters who come after you.  So,
    as much as possible, if you can keep it to 10 minutes, that would
    be terrific.
    I guess I should just start.  Our first public
    presenter is Dr. Ernest Sternglass.  Is Dr. Sternglass here?
    Thank you for coming.  Would you please come to the table?  And
    we would ask you to speak into the microphone so that your
    comments can be recorded for the record.

    DR. STERNGLASS:  Might I be permitted to stand over
    there, because I have a few overheads to show?

    DR. FADEN:  Can we -- we need you to speak into the
    mike.  So, if you can lift the mike up, that would be fine.
    (Pause)
    Statement of Dr. Ernest J. Sternglass
        University of Pittsburgh

    DR. STERNGLASS:  Dr. Faden and distinguished members of
    the committee, I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you
    today.  My remarks will address primarily the question of
    radiation doses and health effects of the radiation exposures
    documented in your work so far, which is the area in which I've
    earned -- carried out extensive research during the past three
    decades as indicated in my vitae.
    In fact, I spent essentially the last 30 years of my
    life trying to reduce doses in medical procedures, including
    radioisotope and x-ray procedures, at the University of
    Pittsburgh, School of Medicine.
    This subject is relevant to the question of
    compensation for both individuals who were exposed in individual
    experiments as well as for large groups of people living near the
    facilities from which experimental releases took place.
    My testimony also bears on the policy recommendations
    your committee has been asked to make with regard to future
    actions by our government involving both individual human
    experiments and releases of radioactivity into the environment,
    since there's evidence, as I will present, that government
    agencies have continued to cover up the three -- the actual true
    doses from environmental releases, and the serious effects of
    such low-dose exposures.  I will not try to read the entire
    testimony.

    DR. FADEN:  We have it as part of the record.

    DR. STERNGLASS:  Right.  And I will just simply
    summarize the essential points for you, using a few overhead
    projections to do this in a few minutes.
    Basically, the argument that I'll be presenting is that
    we have grossly under-estimated without realizing it how chronic
    exposure over long periods of time due to internal doses from
    long-lived Radium class, not the ones we use in medicine, which
    are extremely short-lived and mainly give off penetrating
    radiation, but beta emitters that stay in the bone like Strontium
    90 for a long, long time, have an enormously greater effect than
    we were led to believe on the basis of our experience with
    Radium, which was the only material for which we had any human
    data from the Dial workers that you know about back in the early
    '20s and '30s.
    The trouble is that Alpha particles have a very short
    range of bone, and therefore stick in the bone and do not reach
    the bone marrow to the same degree as has been experimentally
    observed as a beta rate from fusion products, and these did not
    exist on earth before the bomb, and this is really the basic
    reason why we under-estimated the effect.
    We thought we knew what Radium was doing.  We thought
    we knew what Cosmic rays were doing.  We thought we knew what x-
    rays were doing, and we even thought we knew what the short flash
    of the bomb at Hiroshima had done.
    All those studies, including hundreds of studies on
    animals, all those studies have to be done at high enough doses
    to be able to see an effect.  You cannot have a million mice and
    give them a hundredth of a rad and expect to see anything.
    So, of necessity, all work had to be done at high doses
    and high dose rates, and not until 1972 was it discovered quite
    by accident, by a Canadian physician and researcher by the name
    of Dr. Abraham Petgow, working in Penowa, Manitoba, for the
    Atomic Energy establishment of Canada, working on radio-
    protection, and he discovered that cell membranes, fatty cell
    membranes of all types, break at much lower doses when the dose
    is prolonged over a long period of time given in a short x-ray,
    and that is only in 1972, 30 years after the first fusion process
    and long after the bomb testing had begun, in fact ended,
    atmospheric tests and long after all the nuclear facilities in
    the world had constructed, and then only did we learn that the
    chronic exposures to membranes dominate at low doses whereas the
    DNA damage to the cell nuclei and to the genetic information
    dominates at high doses, and therefore the repair mechanism of
    DNA, which are very efficient, led us to believe mistakenly that
    doses, if you extrapolate them down linearly, you would expect to
    have practically no detectable effects from environmental
    releases or tiny doses given in the course of diagnostic
    procedures and so on, and that has in fact, if it hadn't been for
    the fact that x-rays and gamma rays given in short intense bursts
    have little effect, we could never have used radiology as a
    diagnostic tool in medicine or could we have used radiation as a
    way of treating tumors, because we would have killed everybody
    whom we gave x-rays at these high doses.
    It is fortunate, however, that cell membranes are very
    strongly protected by enzymes in the body and the fact that the
    free radicals, which are created, bump into each other and de-
    activate each other at high doses, and therefore we can use
    medical x-rays.  We can use and we're tricked into believing that
    the same thing is true for environmental and tiny doses given
    over very long periods of time.
    I want to emphasize this because I myself have worked
    in the field of diagnostic medicine for 40 years and helped to
    develop instruments that expose people deliberately to radiation,
    but, of course, there was a very clear benefit to the individual
    involved, and this, I think, is the important point; that when
    you do individual, you know, treatment or diagnosis of an ill
    person, then this individual receives both the risk and the
    benefit.

    But when you carry out an experiment in which you
    release radioactivity into the environment for some experimental
    purposes just to satisfy some instrumentalist desire to find out
    how well he can read the meter at 50 miles away, then you see
    you're exposing people who are not ill.  You are exposing women
    during pregnancy, and since Dr. Alice Stewart had already shown
    in 1958 that the fetus is extremely sensitive, then we were
    exposing the most sensitive members of the population for no
    benefit to them whatsoever, without their consent and without
    their ability to even know what was happening to them or to take
    precautions or protect themselves or their children, and that, I
    think, is the difference between the medical use on an individual
    who is ill and the deliberate or often accidental distribution of
    radio-activity in the environment for some purpose other than to
    benefit the individual who receives the radiation.
    Now, the tragedy is that during the Cold War, and
    especially as you have already found with all your
    investigations, there was great concern that the fact of fall-out
    should not become too well known for all the military security
    reasons that you know about.  I don't have to go into that, but
    it's evident that what happened is that the scientific community
    as a whole, people like me, my friends, people who worked on
    equipment and designed reactors, worked on the design of nuclear
    reactors for space propulsion.  I participated in many, you know,
    developments of nuclear instrumentation.
    We had no idea that early, already in 1945-46-47, at
    the Argonne National Lab in Chicago, metallurgical lab, animals
    were exposed to small doses of Strontium 90 during pregnancy, and
    they knew that the dogs that were being examined were not able to
    walk, and they died of pneumonia and cancers and all this in a
    very short time.  Sometimes it was five or 10 years before it
    showed, but because all this was kept secret, we could not
    benefit from it, and therefore what I have done here is to
    provide you with the documentation that show the history of what
    happened now, and now I can just explain to you what the latest
    development is, because Dr. Petgow's findings mean that the dose
    response curve -- in other words, the shape of the dose response
    curve is not a straight line all the way down, and these graphs
    are taken mainly from the material I'm showing you, and this is
    extremely important because all the data at high doses you see
    was on the flat part of the curve.  That means a small increase
    in dose produced very little extra effect, and as long as you're
    way up on this curve, way, way up, then you will never find the
    tiny part of the dose where you have very small amounts, and this
    is taken from our paper, published in the International Journal
    of Health Services, which, by the way, is published in your
    department at Johns Hopkins University, and in this paper, you
    see that if you go across the nation and take the nine census
    regions and use the announced radioactive releases from nuclear
    reactors and plot them up, it's not a straight line, and that, in
    other words, shows that we grossly under-estimated it by using
    that slope rather than this slope.
    And the nature of this curve is such that if you
    decrease it by 10, the risk per millirad goes up tenfold.  If you
    go down another 10, the risk keeps going up, and therefore we
    have a strange situation that the weaker the radiation intensity
    is, the more deadly it is, and nobody anticipated this and
    present radiation standards do not believe in this and have not
    accepted this because it goes against the existing regulations,
    which govern all uses of radiation everywhere, and nobody wants
    to touch this, although the BEIR Committee of the National
    Academy called attention to it years ago in the earlier report,
    BEIR III, and, so, we now find that we have a situation where we
    have far greater health effects than we ever thought.
    Moreover, we can tie this directly to Strontium 90
    specifically because here we have the relationship which shows
    the link between low birth weight and Strontium 90, and this is
    human data, not extrapolated from high doses.  This was gathered
    by the AEC during their early years, where they gathered
    skeletons from all over the world that you publicized, and then
    you see that the number of babies born under-weight in New York
    State is perfectly correlated with an extremely incredibly high
    correlation coefficient of .96, which is totally unbelievable.
    I mean it's just unbelievable that any experiment in
    the environment can give such a correlation, and that is the
    nature of this enormous tragedy that we're faced because of the
    nature of secrecy.

    So, the following point I need to make is that we are
    in a situation where, unfortunately, our government had to -- had
    to deceive the public in order to be able to continue the bomb
    testing, and as a result, they did not realize, for instance,
    that in Nevada, when the bomb tests went off in 1951, and the
    story in today's Times indicates, they did want to find out what
    would happen from bomb testing.

    Well, they never looked at the low birth weight data
    for Nevada.  When you see this giant peak here which only comes
    back down to the rest of the United States, after the end of
    atmospheric surface testing, then you see that we have a far
    greater problem from chronic radiation than anyone had expected,
    especially since all standards have until now been said
    essentially only on cancer and not on other conditions that
    involve the immune system because the Strontium 90 goes to the
    immune system where the beta rays reach and destroy the
    progenitors of all the blood cells, and therefore lead to
    children that are born immature, whose future is impaired because
    low birth weight is associated with learning difficulties, with
    neurological damage, with immune system damage, and we have
    created a generation of children that are now born under weight.
    We see the first peak that I just showed you in the
    previous slide here, and now we see the tragic rise, which in New
    York in recent years has exceeded the high point of fall-out from
    bomb testing, and that is frightening.  It followed some
    accidents at the Indian Point plant, which released low levels
    perfectly within present guidelines that caused apparently
    Strontium 90 damage to the mother's immune system, which causes
    her to reject the fetus as a foreign object.
    We've only learned about the role of the immune system
    in the critical aspect of pregnancy within the last decade or so,
    and, so, you can see it was the inadequacy of our knowledge that
    was so tragic because so much of it was concealed.
    Unfortunately, the concealment still seems to be going
    on, and this is one thing that I'm recommending your committee to
    investigate; namely, the National Cancer Institute did a study in
    1990, which was so arranged and the methodology used in such a
    way that it was practically guaranteed to find no effects around
    62 nuclear facilities, and this was in 1988 and '90, not in 1945
    and 1950.
    We are talking about today's deception that is still
    going on, and in the material that I supplied you, you will see
    what the nature of the deception is, but it's very simple.  They
    said, well, we'll look at the small population that's irradiated
    in this county, and then we'll look to see -- anyway, we'll look
    at this -- the facility which had a high dose here, and then
    we'll pick some control counties, and it turns out that three-
    quarters of the control counties were right adjacent, as if the
    radioactivity stopped, but the latest DOE report submitted to you
    in February shows that they were able to trace the radioactivity
    50 to 200 miles away from a source.
    So, the methodology used was guaranteed not to show
    anything, and furthermore, and this is frightening, as one of the
    criteria they used in order to select control counties, they --
    aside from the normal demographic variables, like sex, race,
    occupation, poverty status and so on, they used and picked
    control counties that had the same infant mortality or low birth
    weight, which was essentially guaranteed to show that there would
    be no difference in cancer rates later, and, so, this is what I'm
    planning to do, namely offering some recommendations to you of
    things to do, and they are written down, and they relate to the
    need to re-examine and to urge or to request or recommend to the
    other departments that the newest data should be re-examined, the
    NCI study should be examined by independent people who are not
    involved in this cover-up, like this committee is an independent
    committee, you can do it, or some subcommittee.
    Secondly, I'd urge that a new way be taken to set
    radiation standards, not by the users exclusively and the self-
    appointed committee, but in a public manner where the public and
    lay person can participate, who are the ones who have to run it,
    take the brunt of the risk, and therefore the biggest thing that
    you can do, I believe, is to recommend that we need to re-examine
    the risks that were involved, and above all not to deny
    compensation to the victims on the basis of the high dose risk
    estimates which clearly, unfortunately, were so low.
    The last slide that I wanted to show you is very
    important, and I'll just take another minute.  This one.  It's
    rather frightening because what the National Cancer Institute
    did, which minimized or practically eliminated the effect of
    radiation, is really very, very serious for the nation as a
    whole, because of the rising cancer rate, and the continued rise
    in low birth weight that nobody knows what's causing it.
    But I'll now show you a graph that is really
    astounding.  This shows how mortality in the United States
    unadjusted for age declined steadily from 1900 to 1945-50, okay,
    and suddenly, beginning with the -- roughly the time of the Bravo
    tests, the first hydrogen bomb test that released thousands of
    times as much Strontium as the Hiroshima bombs, suddenly, there
    was a rise, an abnormal rise, which stayed high, and a gap
    developed between the projection and the actual number of deaths.
    Then, after a short time, 10 years or so, it began to
    try to come down again, but then there was another rise, and I
    have to say the rises have continued in the last two years,
    completely counter to what's going on in most other advanced
    civilized countries.
    Mortality is rising rather than declining, despite all
    our medical efforts and all our expenses, and what this means is
    that this gap here, which has developed, by 1993, this gap
    represents 15.6 million people who died prematurely.
    Thank you very much.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you, Dr. Sternglass.
    We have --
    (Applause)

    DR. FADEN:  -- a limited amount of time.  Are there
    questions from the committee to Dr. Sternglass?  Nancy?

    DR. OLEINICK:  Well, I think your presentation raises
    many questions, and we will undoubtedly not be able to handle
    them right now, and perhaps some of us could speak with you
    afterwards.

    DR. STERNGLASS:  Be happy to do that.  I'll stay
    beyond.

    DR. OLEINICK:  I guess just one question that
    immediately comes to mind is, in general, correlation does not
    mean cause and effect.

    DR. STERNGLASS:  Right.

    DR. OLEINICK:  Right.  And I just wonder, I'm sure this
    is not something you can address in a minute, but I'd like to
    hear what other cause and effect factors were considered and
    ruled out in order to place the blame on Strontium 90.

    DR. STERNGLASS:  Right.  First of all, the cause and
    relation of -- cause and effect relationship between Strontium 90
    has been established since as early as the early '40s and '50s on
    animal studies. There's no question that Strontium 90 produces
    leukemia and other types of cancers.  So, there is no question
    about that.
    Secondly, we -- I pointed to the extremely close
    correlation between Strontium 90 measured actually in bone and
    the low birth weight in New York City.
    Furthermore, there are many other studies which are
    referenced in there, all of which point to the high toxicity and
    the ability of Strontium 90 to affect the immune system, and once
    you affect the immune system, you increase the chance of every
    type of malignancy being accelerated, if it already exists, or
    going out of control, due to the failure of the immune system,
    and, so, there are also studies that I referred to which show
    that the Strontium 90 in the milk by state-by-state with the
    three to four-year lag, which is necessary for the build-up of
    Strontium 90 in bone, and that is actually correlated from state-
    to-state.
    So that states with very low Strontium 90 and otherwise
    similar diets and everything else had very low increases, whereas
    other states that had high data, and, so, there's an enormous
    amount of both human and animal studies that relate Strontium 90
    to leukemia and all types of cancers, including also infectious
    diseases.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you very much, Dr. Sternglass.  I'm
    sure that we all --

    DR. STERNGLASS:  I'll be glad to stay after the
    meeting.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you.  Be sure to take your materials
    with you.  We have -- all the committee members have copies of
    your documents.  Thank you very much.
    Our next presenter from the public is Mrs. Elmerine
    Whitfield Bell.  Is Mrs. Bell here?  Good afternoon, Mrs. Bell.
    Thank you for taking the time to speak with us.
    Statement of Elmerine Whitfield Bell
      Dallas, Texas
    MS. BELL:  Thank you.
    I saw him as a depressing sight.  Joyless, unanimated,
    with a damaged head and a broken spirit.  During his lifetime, I
    saw him as a burden rather than as an asset to my grandmother, as
    she waited on him, pampered him.
    My mother, I recall, resented this treatment while she
    contended that he didn't do his share for the family.  She
    recalled a life of living with a father who, when not on an
    alcoholic binge, suffered from frequent seizures which had to be
    endured by the rest of the family.
    My uncle, on the other hand, did not seem resentful,
    but I often felt he must have been disappointed in a father
    incapable of playing a simple bat and ball game or merely
    offering a positive life outlook.
    My grandmother said it wasn't always like this.  She
    said my grandfather was once a vibrant and handsome Pullman
    porter, a hard worker who wanted only the best for his family.
    When I was younger, I liked to do puzzles from the
    newspaper, where you find words hidden among randomly-arranged
    letters.  Since my grandfather spent most of his time sitting
    alone, he would sometimes complete these puzzles -- we would
    sometimes complete these puzzles together, and eventually he
    began saving them in a neat stack and worked on completing them
    himself.
    In the springtime, I saw him take brown paper bags and
    make kites for the kids down the street.  He once made a pen for
    my pet rabbit.  He often talked of feelings in his missing leg
    and would shudder and make comments like "they must be working on
    my leg today".
    Years later, when I was home on breaks from college,
    the sight of my grandfather was horrible.  He seemed useless and
    frail.  He had lost more of life's joy.  He seemed angry and sad.
    The pain was obvious, and he was sometimes furious and irate,
    mean and spiteful.
    I often have dreams about my grandfather.  Before his
    death, I had a dream that he was in his old house in a coffin,
    open with the body in full view, dead, but alive somehow.  After
    his death, another dream revealed him through a doorway, sitting
    in his wheelchair, looking feeble, yet in good spirits.  He
    seemed to have a newfound joy, laughing and joking with male
    friends.
    When Eileen Welsome presented my family with the fact
    that this man was indeed CAL-3, a human nuclear guinea pig, I
    wondered, could this be the reason, the origin, the root cause of
    this depressed character that I considered all along to be my
    grand-father.  He lived over 40 years without a zest for life and
    with a pain I imagine was without equal.
    For I understand that the reality of life for the
    African American man of the 1940s was already a pre-determined
    bleak one, dictated by the white man's tyrannical power of
    economics, politics, and, to a certain degree, basic freedom.
    Being born a black male was already a handicap, having a limited
    education was a further handicap.  Then to add a physical
    handicap, due to being basically tricked into donating a body
    limb for science.
    With all of this in mind, I now understand how alcohol
    could relieve his reality, how depression and schizophrenia could
    take control of his life, how his feelings of hopelessness
    shattered such a promising future.
    In my most recent dream, I saw my grandfather with both
    legs, standing with confidence and strength of character I never
    saw in real life.  He had a young appearance.  He had a look of
    joy on his face, and he seemed content.
    This statement is signed April D. Whitfield,
    granddaughter of Elmer Allen, March 15th, 1995.
    Good afternoon.  My daughter, April Whitfield, and the
    other survivors of Elmer Allen are determined that the truth
    about his plutonium injection and subsequent leg amputation be
    made a part of the public record.
    We continue to be appalled by the apparent attempts at
    cover-ups, the inferences that the nature of the times, the
    1940s, allowed scientists to conduct experiments without getting
    a patient's consent or without mentioning risks.  We contend that
    my father was not an informed participant in the plutonium
    experiment.

    He was asked to sign his name several times while a
    patient at the University of California hospital in San
    Francisco.  Why was he not asked to sign his name permitting
    scientists to inject him with plutonium?  Why was his wife, who
    was college trained, not consulted in this matter?

    It is my hope that history will not be rewritten in
    committees who claim that they do not understand the actions of
    the scientists of the 1940s, those who claim that poor and
    disenfranchised African American men could not be hoodwinked by
    his doctors.

    I hope you will understand that just as Jewish fathers
    were placed in the ovens at Auschwitz, my father, Elmer Allen,
    was placed in his own private oven here in the United States of
    America.  He was left there for 44 years, and the scientists
    occasionally took a peek inside to see if he was still alive.

    His survivors are pledged to tell the truth about this
    experiment for the next 50 or even 100 years, if necessary, so
    that future generations will have more than lies, half truths,
    and inconclusive reports, when attempting to recount this real-
    life horror story.

    Thank you.  I didn't know I had 10 minutes because I
    would have a lot more to say, but I thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you very much, Mrs. Bell.  Please
    don't leave us.  I'm sure there are questions of committee
    members, or if you have a few more comments that you would like
    to make, please feel free to make them.

    MS. BELL:  I just wanted to address the report of the
    UCSF ad hoc fact-finding committee.  There are so many
    inconsistencies in here, I hope you all will look at them and
    look at them again and again, and pay attention to the
    biographies of the scientists involved and how they seemed to all
    have some type of connection.

    I believe I know what happened, and I hope, hopefully,
    all of you will come to some conclusion that these folk were
    wrong.

    DR. FADEN:  Lois?

    MS. NORRIS:  Thank you for your testimony.  Did your
    father ever express knowledge of the fact that he was an
    experimental subject, and, more importantly, did he tell you then
    what he was told before this was done or after it was done?

    MS. BELL:  It is my feeling that my father had no idea
    that he was being used as an experimental subject in something
    this important.

    It's really hard to explain because of the things that
    my father said, nobody paid attention to. It was known, and my
    mother explained to us, about his initial accident, when he was
    thrown from the train, and it was always our contention that the
    leg had to be amputated because surgery would not permit it to be
    healed properly.

    So, we grew up, my brother and I grew up thinking that
    the leg was amputated because it could not be repaired.

    My father often said things that didn't make sense and
    usually was when he was inebriated.  He would say things like
    that he knew that the doctors that were working on him didn't
    know what they were doing.  It was his contention that they were
    young people, and knowing that UCSF was a teaching hospital, we
    always thought he was talking about the interns that didn't know
    what they were doing.  But he said, you know, when you find
    somebody that starts right in, and he would recall that they were
    running in and out of his room on certain times, that perhaps
    they didn't know what they were doing and made some type of
    mistake.

    But to go on with it, after reading my father's medical
    records, the graphic charts that were written down during the
    time that he was in the hospital, first of all, I took offense at
    the fact that the doctors made most of his comments as to my
    father's joviality, happy man, amiable, and that's spelled
    incorrectly in his statement, and I can show it, also.

    But he was like he was setting him up, but after the
    biopsy on my father's leg, they put the leg in a full cast and
    suspended it, and to me, living even in the '90s, if something --
    if I had an injury to my leg and someone put it in a full cast
    and suspended it, I would think that it was in the process of
    healing, and I can just imagine if they came in three days later
    and told he they need to split the cast, and they did something
    to the leg, and then a couple of days later cut it off, I would
    feel that someone made a mistake.

    So, this is what I attribute his statements to mean.

    DR. FADEN:  Ruth?

    DR. MACKLIN:  Yes.  Ms. Bell, you said that

    -- you just told us now that you saw some of these hospital
    records?

    MS. BELL:  Yes.

    DR. MACKLIN:  Your father's records, and in your
    written testimony, you say he was asked to sign his name several
    times while a patient at UCSF.

    Do you know what -- did you see documents that he
    signed, and were those consent to treatment, consent to surgery,
    consent to research?  What were they?  What did he sign?

    MS. BELL:  I've seen two documents.  One was the first
    day he was admitted to the hospital, which was five days before
    the injection.  They wanted to do a biopsy on the leg, and he had
    to be put to sleep by the anesthetic.  There was a consent form,
    and he did sign that.

    After the injection, before they amputated the leg, he
    had to sign a consent form for the leg to be amputated, and he
    signed that.  So, since there was no -- nothing wrong with his
    hands between that time, this is why the family is concerned that
    he was not asked to sign for something this important.

    DR. MACKLIN:  Hm-hmm.

    DR. FADEN:  Mrs. Bell, you were speaking about your
    brother and you believing that your father had had the amputation
    because the leg couldn't heal properly, and that -- was your --
    what was your mother's understanding of why the leg had been
    amputated?  Was that the same --

    MS. BELL:  We got our information from our mother.

    DR. FADEN:  You thought that was what she thought?

    MS. BELL:  Yes, that's what she thought.

    DR. FADEN:  Okay.

    MS. BELL:  And another thing I wanted to mention, also,
    and I'm not trying to be a doctor or a scientist or anything like
    this, but one of the concerns that my mother had was the -- and I
    do understand this is the '40s.  I just said that.  I know folk
    didn't talk to folk, especially an African American, but at the
    time, my father had had a viable job, but he had run out of
    money.  This is why his doctor, his private doctor, referred him
    to UCSF, and you know and I know that the times did not offer
    African Americans a chance to ask a lot of questions, especially
    if you needed someone's assistance.

    But my mother claims to this day that she does not
    recall anyone even showing her a document or saying that my
    father had cancer, and in all the documents here say that -- and
    we've subsequently read that he's supposed to have had cancer,
    but -- and I've also talked to experts who said that if he had
    this type of cancer that they said he had, that he should have
    been dead within 10 years, which was following the guidelines,
    but he lived for 44 years.

    So, actually, it had to be a mis-diagnosis.  My mother
    recalls hearing the word "cancer" for the first time when she was
    -- when they were contacted by the scientists from Argonne in
    1972 about coming in for the follow-up studies, and she offered
    surprise at that diagnosis because that was the first time she
    had heard, from 1947 to 1972.

    DR. FADEN:  So, the statements that are in the chart in
    UCSF, your father's medical record, the two physician signatures,
    your mother has no recollection of anyone ever talking to her
    about any experiment or anything?

    MS. BELL:  She did not.  She never heard of it, and I
    know I'm not here to speak to my mother's health, but just --
    you'd have to know my mother to know what I'm saying.  This has
    like really devastated her.  She went from a person with -- that
    was very viable, somebody who could come here and express herself
    much better than I can today, to a person who's virtually an
    invalid, who's a recluse now.  She's really ashamed that
    something like this could have happened, and she was not sharp
    enough to catch it.  She really thought she was a pretty bright
    lady.

    DR. FADEN:  It's a terrible burden for her.  Are there
    other questions for Mrs. Bell?  Yes, Lois?

    MS. NORRIS:  Just a very quick one.  Did the medical
    records show cancer that you received recently?

    MS. BELL:  There was -- I'm not a medical expert.  So,
    I'm not saying it said cancer.  It said the sarcoma.  So, that's
    the cancer.

    MS. NORRIS:  Okay.  Thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  Well, we thank you very much for your
    taking the time to come and talk to us, and for your daughter's
    testimony as well.  Thank you.

    MS. BELL:  Thank you.

    (Applause)

    DR. FADEN:  Our next presenter is Mr. Steve Schwartz.
    Mr. Schwartz here?

    (No response)

    DR. FADEN:  We'll reserve his place in case he stepped
    out of the room.

    Mr. Brown, Mr. Cooper Brown?  Next on the list then.
    Good afternoon.

        Statement of Cooper Brown

          National Association of Radiation Victims

    MR. BROWN:  Good afternoon.

    Madam Chair and members of the committee, thank you
    once again for inviting me to testify or allowing me to testify.

    What I have done, and I hope everybody's now seen this,
    is I've provided recommendations that come not from myself but
    from the task force in the leadership at the Radiation Victims
    Survivors community, primarily focused on the issue of remedies,
    and I think rather than read that, I'm going to leave that for
    your digestion at a later point.

    I'd just summarize briefly what -- where the task force
    is coming from, and that is, when we look at the issue of rights
    and remedies, we realized that at this stage in the game, perhaps
    the best thing -- certainly it proves the best thing for us, and
    perhaps it will prove the best thing for the advisory committee,
    is rather than trying to deal with a lot of the detail that comes
    up when you start talking about remedies, you focus on the issue
    at the level of principles, and that's what we've attempted to do
    in the presentation that has now been submitted to the advisory
    committee.

    I just want to stress, too, and I will come back to
    them in a minute, but one fundamental principle revolves around
    the issue of outreach, and I've stated our concerns before, and
    I'll probably state them again.

    The second fundamental principle revolves around the
    issue of protecting the individuals' rights to remedy within the
    justice system, and with that, what I want to try and do is
    wrestle with four questions that I understand from Dan the
    committee is particularly concerned about.

    I hope that I -- that I articulate the questions
    properly, and then I'm going to try to give you very quick answer
    to each one of these.  The questions as I understand them that
    are of particular concern to the committee.

    Are there special considerations when you address the
    issue of remedies because of, for lack of a better word, the
    cover-up that took place here?  That's Question Number 1.

    Secondly, where in -- here, I may be inarticulately
    recharacterizing this question, but where -- I think what the
    second concern is that if you have reason to believe that -- or,
    you know, that there's some evidence to suggest an increased risk
    of bodily injury, personal injury, because of the radiation
    exposure, how do you define that?  Who does it?  You know, what -
    - how do you assess damages in a situation like that?

    The third, issues arising around the question of
    notification, not the least of which is who do you notify, and
    how, and fourth, what -- what do you do with people yet to be
    discovered?  You know, experiments have taken place, but nobody's
    stepped forward.

    The short answers to those questions are yes, it
    depends, make a good faith effort, and government gets pro-
    active.

    More -- more to -- more to the point, special
    considerations because of the cover-up, yes.  I think that -- and
    we make the point in our prepared testimony, this is the
    importance of restoring the rights of individuals, and that
    necessarily would require an act of Congress in a situation like
    that, but I mean what -- what was going on here, we see from some
    of the early documents, that there was a conscious -- there was a
    concern and a conscious effort as a result to suppress
    information about what was really going on in order to avoid not
    only the adverse publicity but liability, and because of that,
    the issue of restoration of rights becomes, we think, very
    important.

    The second issue about risk and how you define injury
    and how do you define damages, it's very problematic, as you
    know, but perhaps -- well, not perhaps.  The -- we feel that the
    question, and I think that Elmerine Whitfield's testimony perhaps
    underscores this point better than anything I can ever say, but
    looking at radiation health risks is simply -- is but only one
    element of the question of what was the harm, what are the
    damages?

    What Elmerine Whitfield, Mrs. Whitfield was speaking to
    was a fundamental notion under common law, and that's the
    dignitary interests.  Deprivation of rights.  That has to be
    taken seriously.  It can't be dismissed because the dose due to
    the radiation was "inconsequential" or the risk from such a dose
    was minimal.

    There's something far more egregious going on here, and
    I think Mrs. Whitfield most eloquently spoke to that point, and,
    finally, you cannot ignore the issue of exemplary damages, and
    when we were wrestling with this among ourselves down in
    Knoxville, and trying to figure out, well, what happens when
    you've got the situation, you know, how do you -- how do you deal
    with this issue of the -- there's no injury, but yet there's been
    an unethical, unlawful experiment, an experiment without the
    individual's consent.

    Somebody pointed out that it's much like the situation
    of you're gone for the week, somebody comes into your house, uses
    the house, doesn't destroy anything, doesn't use any of the food
    in the refrigerator, if they do, they put the same food back.
    The house is clean, everything.  You come back.  Nothing's amiss.
    Nothing's -- all right.

    But this individual while he was there took a lot of
    pictures, turned around, went out and sold the pictures and made
    a lot of money and became famous.  Now, what does he -- you know,
    are there damages here?  You know, what are you entitled to?  Are
    you entitled to the profit that this fellow made off of your --
    the pictures he took of your -- he stole from your house?

    I mean that's -- when this person crystallized it in
    that fashion, then we felt that that made sense, and if you can
    put that perspective into this issue, perhaps it will help in
    wrestling that particular matter to the ground.

    Then the question, who decides?  What are the
    standards?  Who's the judge?  Who's the jury?  Well, we would
    submit that absent clear evidence that the court system won't
    accommodate the victims' claims, leave it to the existing civil
    justice system, but now if there are persuasive arguments that
    exist for establishing an administrative claims process, then
    there are some fundamental principles that cannot be ignored.

    One is it should be limited to the issue of damages,
    bodily injury, damages related to the radiation health risk.  It
    should be based on presumptions.  It should be a non-exclusive
    remedy, and when we say that, we mean a number of things.

    One is it would be limited to the radiation-related
    claims only, but the victim or the family member would not be
    required to give up his or her or their rights to pursue that
    same cause of action in the courts initially.

    They would also not be required to give up the right to
    sue in court on the dignitary claims, constitutional rights
    deprivation claims, privacy claims, and, finally, they should not
    be forced to relinquish, as has happened to some of the radiation
    victims, their claims against the private parties.

    To the extent that private parties were merely acting
    as agents of the Federal Government, there are court-created
    defenses that they already have available to them.  They do not
    need a legislatively-imposed Warner amendment.

    Now, so, that's a brief summary to the concerns as I
    understand them to be for the committee.

    I want to back up and just visit a couple of things.
    One is the importance of one's day in court.  I have been trying
    for several years, and it's only become really apparent to me
    over this last six or eight months, to figure out why it is that
    the radiation victims survivors community, in particular groups
    like the Atomic Veterans, are still angry.

    There's been an administrative remedy.  There have been
    congressional hearings.  There's been a lot done.  Health care
    provided.  Yes, the system doesn't work well.  Yes, there are
    problems.  But I think that what goes to the core of it for the
    veterans as well as for others is the feeling that they were
    robbed of their day in court.

    I know that is particularly so for many of the atomic
    veterans that I worked with, and the other concern, and this is
    from the perspective of society, is that when you impose an
    administrative remedy, what I've observed is what dies on the
    vine almost immediately is the truth, because you don't have
    access to it anymore, and that's the other concern.

    Now, finally, what is -- when we talk about restoring
    rights, restoring people's rights to their day in court, we're
    talking essentially about removing procedural and hyper-technical
    impediments to that day in court.

    What's -- what are the merits of that?  Because what
    we're asking -- we're asking a lot when we ask that.  Well, I'd
    submit that the merits are similar to the -- how you are
    assessing the issue with ethics and what standards apply.

    I think the committee has agreed that the ethics
    standards to be applied are the ethics standards that were in
    existence at the time the experiments took place.

    If you look, you will find that many of the procedural
    and what I would call hyper-technical sovereign immunity defenses
    that bar access for many to the courts, particularly against the
    government, did not arise until the late -- until the mid to late
    1970s.  That had these people had knowledge of what happened, had
    they not been deprived of the day in court back when the
    experiments took place, many of those lawsuits would have been
    able to go to trial because these defenses did not exist, and
    it's those -- we submit that when you're evaluating this from a
    legal perspective, the same standards should be applied as are
    being applied when you're judging this from an ethical
    perspective.

    And, finally, and I mention this as an attorney, I know
    that there are members of the committee that are concerned that
    these issues and the victims not become another public trial for
    avaricious plaintiffs' attorneys.

    I have to tell you that since my first day in law
    school, I've never been particularly enamored of the legal
    profession.  I actually may end up being a plaintiffs' attorney
    in some of these cases as it now stands, but the point is that if
    you get into that debate, you're essentially -- you're taking
    sides then.  You're taking sides against the plaintiffs'
    attorneys and for the defendants' attorneys.

    We discovered in doing some research there's a case
    called Barrett v. United States in which the government's -- the
    government attorneys were implicated in a cover-up of an
    experiment that took place using not radiation but some form of
    drug, and, anyway, the attorneys advised -- the Justice
    Department attorneys advised on the cover-up.

    They were held accountable under Bivens for a violation
    of the constitutional rights.  The claims against the attorneys
    were allowed to go forward.  I would submit that what we're going
    to find as we dig into this further is that there were attorneys
    at the Department of Energy and other agencies as well as in the
    Justice Department that were advising with regard to the cover-
    up.

    So, if this -- and they should be held accountable, if
    that is the case.  So, you see, if you start taking sides against
    raising concerns about plaintiffs' attorneys, you're ignoring
    something here.

    My personal feeling is that if you want to, you know,
    keep the plaintiffs' attorneys at bay, limit the amount that they
    can collect on any judgment or award.  That would be how I'd do
    it.

    Anyway, thank you very much for your leniency.  I know
    I'm way over my time.  I appreciate it very much, and if you have
    any questions, you know where to reach me.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you, Mr. Brown, and thank you for the
    written document.  Written documents are very helpful for us to
    work with.

    Mr. Brown has already left the podium, but are there
    any questions for Mr. Brown before we go on?

    (No response)

    DR. FADEN:  All right.  Our next presenter is Dr. Oscar
    Rosen.  Dr. Rosen?  Good to see you.  Thank you for coming.

      Statement of Dr. Oscar Rosen

           National Association of Atomic Veterans

    DR. ROSEN:  Thank you.  Thank you very much for
    inviting me to speak.

    I've been attending as many of these conferences as I
    can, and I've learned an awful lot, and as you can see from the
    cover of the newsletter, the Atomic Veterans newsletter that was
    distributed to all of you, my thinking as the editor of this
    newsletter has been enormously influenced by what I've learned
    from attending these conferences and from the documents that you
    have -- you have distributed to the public.

    That's the greatest thing you could possibly have done
    for us because with your resources, you have accomplished more in
    a year and a half than we could have accomplished in a million
    years, and you still have more time to do this.

    The -- the Buchenwald touch article, I learned from a
    document that I received from this committee, and I think it's
    very appropriate, and I -- when I heard Mrs. Bell mention that
    her father was, you know, figuratively put in an oven, just like
    the, you know, millions of Jews at Auschwitz and Buchenwald and
    other places, I felt a great, great compassion and empathy, and
    then the article on the sterilization experiments on prisoners,
    and the fact that they had to consent to have vasectomies after
    the experiments because of the damage to their chromosomes, that
    was -- that really hit home.

    And then the -- the Atomic Veterans and Widows
    testimony to this President's Advisory Committee on Human
    Radiation Experiments, the thousands of test participants may
    have been used as guinea pigs after all.

    I know that when the committee first began its work, it
    wasn't -- didn't seem to be particularly interested in the atomic
    veterans and so on, just in the -- just in the human radiation
    experiments, like the one that Mrs. Bell's father was subjected
    to.

    But because of the testimony, especially of Pat Broudy
    and Cooper Brown and, you know, others, Charlie McKay, and the
    Atomic Veterans and Widows, who have testified at Santa Fe, San
    Francisco and elsewhere, I think this committee has finally
    started moving in our direction.

    Last -- at the last conference, I learned that only --
    only Part 1 of the Pacific -- part of one of the test series was
    deemed experimental by this committee, and that was Operation Red
    Wing, but -- and I wrote a little bit about that in this -- in my
    testimony, but then, when I came here, the first thing I did was
    to get a set of the latest documents, and in it, I was amazed to
    see all the material you have on Operation Buster Jangle, and
    that you have -- that there is evidence now that Buster Jangle
    was also experimental.

    So, that's another big step in the direction that we
    were hoping you would take.

    I'll read through my written testimony as quickly as I
    can, although I can talk forever on this subject.

    The charge of this committee is analogous to that given
    to the Manhattan Engineer Project.  It took about five years to
    develop the bomb under a crash program to which unlimited
    resources were allocated.  The best minds in nuclear science and
    ancillary fields were brought together to accomplish the project.

    This advisory committee was allowed little more than a
    year or a year and a half in which to accomplish the daunting and
    laborious task of illuminating all the shameful experiments
    conceived to provide the planners of nuclear war and its
    consequences with defenses against lawsuits and the other
    negative results of their policies.

    How can this committee be expected to clean up the
    mega-tons of experimental garbage that took the years of the
    Manhattan project, the human radiation experiments, the years of
    atomic bomb testing, and deliberate exposure to ionizing
    radiation of several hundred thousand servicemen to create?

    And I might add because of Dr. Sternglass' talk, and
    also the leakage from nuclear power plants, it might interest you
    to know that when I told Dr. Sternglass, who by the way is the
    scientific advisor to the National Association of Atomic
    Veterans, that my mother died of bladder cancer in 1962 at age
    62, you know, when I thought she was an old woman, and because
    her hair was white and so forth, he told me that it had to have
    been from the fall-out from the, you know, from the nuclear bomb
    testing from 1945 to 1962, and he knows, and others know and have
    written that fall-out from the tests came down in many parts of
    the U.S., including Massachusetts, and she may also have been
    affected by the Pilgrim Nuclear Power Plant, for all we know.

    We know that there have been lots of health problems
    surrounding the Pilgrim Nuclear Power Plant.  Like the civilian
    guinea pigs, we, including military personnel and civilian test
    site workers and down-winders, were the subjects of bio-medical
    experiments, should call them homicidal experiments, to see how
    we would be affected by ionizing radiation under every
    conceivable aspect of military service in war and peace.

    We were a captive population like a group of prisoners
    who were deliberately exposed to gamma radiation to determine how
    much it would take to make them sterile.  In the consent form,
    they had to agree to have vasectomies because of possible damage
    to their chromosomes.

    Then there were the Fernald children who were fed
    Quaker Oats laced or flavored with radiation, take your pick.
    What about the radiation experiments on the pregnant women at
    Vanderbilt University Hospital or the 18 innocents, including
    Mrs. Bell's father, who were injected with plutonium without
    their knowledge or consent or the children who were experimented
    upon by NASA at Oak Ridge or the children of the down-winders who
    were badged to see how much radiation they were exposed to or the
    children of the Los Alamos scientists we learned about at the
    last conference and the thousands of military personnel, male and
    female, who were stationed at Camp Hanford to guard the plutonium
    production facilities?

    As for military personnel at the Pacific and Nevada
    Proving Grounds, some were badged but most were not.  Even
    Stafford Warren's so-called radiation safety monitors were
    experimental subjects.  Some of the men claimed that -- some of
    the test participants, not particularly the safety monitors,
    claim that when they went to sick bay after the test to complain
    about illnesses, their illnesses were deliberately mis-diagnosed
    as conventional ones, just as the DOD is doing about the Persian
    Gulf illnesses, and some of them were given quickie medical
    discharges.

    How many men may have been court-martialed or otherwise
    punished for refusing to be exposed to radiation during the
    atomic bomb testing?  Probably not many because not many knew
    what the real dangers were.

    Why were so many medical records lost, quote unquote?
    Why were so many young men sent on temporary duty assignments,
    TDY, to be guinea pigs in atomic bomb tests, and why were their -
    - their assignments deliberately left out of their service
    records, so that when they filed claims, they would be denied for
    lack of proof of participation?

    Why did the military and nuclear power industries adopt
    the threshold of harmless exposure below a certain specified
    amount of radiation?  Again, when Dr. Sternglass was talking
    about the, you know, the linear principle and so on.

    Why did they also accept the linear hypothesis whereby
    the more radiation one was exposed to, the more harm would result
    as a strategy to deny the insidious long-range effect of low-
    level ionizing radiation?

    Why was Stafford Warren concerned about the large
    number of lawsuits that might occur?  Why was the Defense Nuclear
    Agency created?  Was it to help the veterans obtain justice or to
    prevent them from obtaining justice?  Why were less than adequate
    radiation compensation laws passed?

    Why were so many competent scientists like Dr.
    Sternglass drummed out of government or denied funding for their
    legitimate research or prevented from publishing their findings
    when they sought to tell the truth?

    Why is a veteran's only recourse for justice the VA?
    Why can't he sue his government for damages?  Why is he denied
    his constitutional rights of due process?  It's because of a
    Supreme Court decision reached just after World War II called the
    Ferris doctrine.  When a serviceman tried to sue the government
    for injuries he suffered while in the service, and he was turned
    down because of the principle of sovereign immunity for the
    government, which immunized it against suits, a suit by a
    serviceman.

    Why was the Price-Anderson Act passed in 1957, to
    protect the utility companies from full financial liability for
    nuclear disasters?  Why was the Warner Amendment enacted to
    immunize government contractors involved in the nuclear bomb
    testing from being sued by injured servicemen?

    My over-riding concern already mentioned before this
    committee by Cooper Brown, Cliff Honicker, Pat Broudy, and
    others, is that this committee's findings may fall short of
    producing the evidence that will support the claims of the
    thousands of atomic veterans who believe that they were
    experimental subjects in the same context as all the other
    subjects, who were injected with radioactive substances in order
    to prepare this country for nuclear warfare.

    It is clear that every test was designed to test the
    succession of nuclear devices on the military personnel involved.
    I'll give you an example.  After Operation Crossroads, it was
    determined that on the ships, the target ships, that objects that
    were painted lighter in color showed less radioactivity than
    objects that were painted darker in color.

    I happened to meet a Navy veteran of Operation Hard
    Tack One, when I lived back in Pennsylvania, and he had served on
    the USS Boxer as an enlisted man in Operation Hard Tack One, and
    he told me that in preparation for one of the bomb tests, the
    enlisted men of the Boxer were told to line up on the flight deck
    and cover themselves with their mattress covers, which were
    white, and turn their backs in the direction of the detonation,
    and while the officers were in the enclosed bridge.

    This is what he told me, and he said that when the bomb
    went off, they could feel the heat, the blast, see the bones in
    their arms, and he said that not long after that, his hair began
    to fall out.  He was only 18.  When he went aboard the Boxer, he
    had a full head of bright, you know, flaming red hair.  His hair
    fell out, then his teeth began to fall out, and now he frequently
    has cysts on his body that have to be removed, and we hear this
    constantly from veterans, the same story about the teeth, the
    hair and the cysts.

    So, how will they be affected during the short run
    because a nuclear war was not expected to last very long?
    National survival was the compelling reason for these tests,
    according to the test planners.

    J. Robert Oppenheimer, when he was -- when he -- when
    he learned that post-war nuclear bomb tests were being planned,
    he insisted that the testing could be done with models and could
    be done theoretically, but he was overridden.

    Long wars were a thing of the past.  The Gulf War is a
    case in point.  If even one of the cruise missiles used was
    nuclear tipped, how long would that war have lasted?  And what
    would the human damage have been?  Why isn't the veteran given
    the benefit of the doubt when his claim is being adjudicated as
    the law stipulates?

    It says this in the laws, but he's not given the
    benefit of the doubt.  Speaking of the Gulf War, did any of you
    watch 60 Minutes last Sunday, when Ed Bradley presented all kinds
    of evidence, including witnesses, that poisonous chemicals were
    used by Iraq during the war, and that many of our personnel
    became very ill, that they became very ill as a result of their
    exposure?

    And John Deutsch, who's the assistant secretary of
    Defense now, and who is the appointee designate to head the CIA,
    persistently denied that any of the illnesses were caused by
    chemical agents to which the servicemen and women might have been
    exposed during the Gulf War, and I've heard too much testimony to
    the contrary, and I was also both disappointed and shocked that
    the use of depleted uranium during the Gulf War was not mentioned
    even once, and I have heard testimony at a conference that I went
    to in Jonesboro, Tennessee, a few months ago by participants, who
    claimed that they were -- that their health was seriously
    impaired by depleted uranium, and, so, that I was very
    disappointed in that 60 Minutes presentation, but I was not
    surprised to hear the testimony of John Deutsch.

    And he was obviously lying, and when he was the provost
    of MIT, one of his jobs was to get as much money from the
    Pentagon as possible to finance MIT defense research.  He also
    happened to be on the executive board of SAIC, the Science -- the
    -- let's see.  SAIC, Science Applications International
    Corporation, Incorporated, which is a contractor for the Defense
    Nuclear Agency, to provide dosage reconstructions, which are
    invariably low and used by the VA to shoot down veterans' claims.

    This committee has determined that all the nuclear bomb
    test series in the Pacific and Nevada -- that of all the nuclear
    bomb test series in the Pacific and Nevada only operation was Red
    Wing -- only Operation Red Wing was experimental because the
    military aircraft that were flown through the mushroom clouds
    were not equipped with the filters used to collect air samples.
    If they were equipped with filters, I suppose their missions
    would not have been regarded as experimental.

    As of this moment, this is when I wrote this, to the
    best of my knowledge, none of the other tests have been deemed
    experimental by this committee.  I hope this will change.

    Well, as I pointed out at the beginning of my talk, it
    does seem to be changing because of what you came up with on
    Buster Jangle.  Further, the committee relied exclusively on
    governmental sources instead of their own faculties to reach this
    conclusion considering all the information available about these
    tests, which is now apparently being rectified.

    Can you imagine the uproar that would ensue when
    participants in the other test series learn that the tests that
    they were in were not considered experimental?

    Well, now you've opened a Pandora's box by coming up
    with the evidence about Red Wing.  So, documentary material --
    that is in our favor.  Documentary material has been presented to
    this committee stating that urine samples were to be obtained
    from all the test participants, which, of course, were not
    obtained from the vast majority of the test participants.

    Why are urine samples taken?  They are taken to see how
    much radiation -- how much radiation remains in the body or they
    are taken to determine how the ingested radiation affects the
    subject's health.

    We think the urine samples, if they are taken or have
    been taken, were to determine that -- how little was left in the
    body, despite the damage, what was excreted previously caused.

    I was a test participant in Operation Crossroads at
    Bikini in July 1946.  One of my crew mates recently informed me,
    I hadn't seen him for years, recently informed me that he was
    told not to look at the atomic detonation because he might suffer
    serious radiation injury.  I'm talking about Test Able, the bomb
    that shows on the cover of this newsletter.

    I, on the contrary, recall being out on the deck of the
    same vessel, the floating drydock, which had been towed to a
    presumably safe distance when it was announced over the PA system
    that if we wanted to see the detonation of Test Able, we should
    look at a certain direction and listen to the count down over the
    PA system.

    We were not issued protective goggles, even though I
    later learned that a special directive to that effect had been
    issued to all the ships assigned to the test.  When the count
    down reached zero, I saw the flash on the horizon, and we
    immediately reversed course and headed back to Bikini.  We
    entered the lagoon the next morning, anchored and proceed to work
    on damaged target ships.

    As before the test, when work was over, we stripped
    down and dove into the contaminated lagoon for our usual
    refreshing swim.  Nobody told us that the lagoon water might be
    contaminated with alpha particles.  Nobody told the young men who
    were sent aboard the target ships to retrieve dead and dying
    experimental animals, cameras, and test equipment about the
    dangers of radiation.

    Why were some of the target ships "decontaminated" and
    declared geiger sweet as opposed to geiger sour when they were
    really not -- when they were really not, so that the crews could
    go back aboard to resume their normal duties?  We believe that
    this was experimental.

    Why did the surviving crew members of some of the
    support ships still refer to them as death ships?  The bottom
    line is that they wanted to see how our ability to engage in
    combat operations during a nuclear war would be affected.  They
    wanted to see how living aboard supposedly decontaminated target
    ships would affect our ability to perform our military duties,
    and we were also the victims of the insatiable curiosity of Dr.
    Strangeloves, like Dr. Edward Teller, who wanted to see what
    could be learned from the testing of bombs of many different
    designs and yields.

    Just as John Deutsch lied on 60 Minutes the other
    night, Pentagon spokesmen have been lying for decades about the
    real effects of radiation on the hundreds of thousands of
    servicemen who were exposed.

    I rest my case.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you, Mr. Rosen.

    DR. ROSEN:  Thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  We're running --

    (Applause)

    DR. FADEN:  -- short on time.  Is there anyone who has
    a question for Dr. Rosen?

    (No response)

    DR. FADEN:  If not, we have your written testimony, and
    we appreciate your taking the time.

    DR. ROSEN:  Thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  Our next presenter is Mr. Glenn

    -- I'm sorry if I pronounce your last name -- Alcalay, is that
    correct?

    MR. ALCALAY:  Correct.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you for coming, Mr. Alcalay.

                  Statement of Glenn Alcalay

                      New York, New York

    MR. ALCALAY:  Thank you, Dr. Faden and members of the
    committee, for this opportunity.

    I'm going to address my remarks this afternoon to the
    women of the Marshall Islands.  My name is Glenn Alcalay, and I
    have had a 20-year involvement with the people of the Marshall
    Islands, beginning 20 years ago as a young Peace Corps volunteer
    on Utirik, one of the downwind atolls from Bikini, which was hit
    with a very substantial amount of radioactive fall-out from the
    U.S.'s largest hydrogen bomb thermo-nuclear weapon at Bikini in
    1954.

    I learned very early on that all was not well with the
    people of Utirik, and it was my experience, after having been on
    Utirik for one month as a Peace Corps volunteer, that I
    encountered my first foray with East meets West in the form of a
    Brookhaven National Laboratory survey done under the auspices of
    the Atomic Energy Commission, headed up by Dr. Robert Conard, the
    then director of the Brookhaven team assessing the follow-up
    program in the aftermath of Bravo from 1954.

    In 1975, as a young Peace Corps volunteer, I inquired
    to Dr. Conard about the potential harm to women and reproduction
    as a consequence of latent effect of radiation, and before the
    community-wide village meeting between Brookhaven and the people
    of Utirik, I was told in no uncertain terms that that was not my
    bailiwick, that I really had no business making such an inquiry,
    and that I should stick to my formal Peace Corps duties of
    teaching English and setting up an agricultural cooperative.

    That is, it was 20 years ago for me that I began to
    sense that something was rotten in the state of Denmark.

    At the present time, I am a doctoral candidate in
    medical anthropology at the New School for Social Research in New
    York.  I'm also assistant professor of Anthropology at the City
    College of the City University of New York, and for the past 20
    years, I have made seven return trips to the Marshall Islands.
    I've spent a total of four and a half years in the past 20 years,
    including the two years as a Peace Corps volunteer, in the
    Marshals.  I'm a fluent speaker of the language, and it was
    always very interesting to me to go back and investigate this
    question of women vis-a-vis the latent effects of radiation in
    the Marshals.

    Now, following 41 years of the follow-up studies of
    Brookhaven following Bravo in 1954, it is well documented and
    acknowledged that thyroid abnormalities are one of the larger
    problems facing the Marshalese.

    In addition to a few assorted carcinomas, the
    Brookhaven scientists have very narrowly focused on thyroid
    abnormality and a few assorted carcinomas.  The question of women
    and reproduction has always been conspicuously omitted.

    It was for that reason when I chose my topic for doing
    doctoral research that I decided to focus on women.  I'd like to
    read a quote from one of my 1200 interviews I've collected over
    the past 20 years of Marshalese women, one of the inducements
    about how I got involved.

    This is a quote from a Mili Latobo on Utirik, and I
    quote, she says, "Some women gave birth to creatures like cats,
    rats and the insides of turtles, like intestines.  Most of the
    women had miscarriage, including myself, who gave birth to
    something unlike a human being.  Some women gave birth to things
    resembling grapes and other fruits, and some women even stopped
    having children, including myself.  Things are not the same now,
    and the people are not as active and healthy as before the bomb."

    I heard this repeatedly throughout the Marshall Islands
    from many women, and it seemed really curious about this chasm
    that existed between Brookhaven studies and the perceptions,
    indigenous perceptions and observations of the Marshalese women.

    For that reason, I spent 13 months in the Marshall
    Islands, between 1990 and 1991, conducting a health survey on
    women and reproduction, and I would direct your attention in my
    statement, I'm sorry I didn't bring overheads, I should have had
    foresight to bring overheads, I'm going to share with the
    committee some preliminary findings of my 13-month health survey
    that I conducted in the Marshall Islands, wherein I interviewed
    830 women on 10 different atolls.

    In a nutshell, I clustered the Marshall Islands.
    Here's a map, by the way, attached to my statement of the .  I
    clustered the islands under purview in terms of their proximity
    to Bikini, the site of the largest thermo-nuclear weapons in the
    1950s, and I divided them into Northern  and Southern .  That
    seemed reasonable.  And I anticipated there might be confounding
    variables with my study.

    I anticipated I could hear Dr. Conard saying to me,
    well, what about the problem of selective memory, for example.
    Moreover, since a nuclear claims tribunal has been established
    under the Compact of Free Association Regiment, whereby a $150
    million trust fund has been established in the Marshals, the
    Marshalese are at present filing claims for health injury and
    property damage stemming from the tests, what about the so-called
    greed factor or let's call it more diplomatically the
    embellishment factor of the selective memory problem?

    My sense and my 20-year knowledge of the , if we can
    call this the greed factor, that the greed factor amongst all
    50,000 Marshall Islanders will be randomly distributed throughout
    the .  I do not think there is one island with a monopoly on the
    greed factor.

    Another factor-encountering variable might have to do
    with differentials in health care provision; that is, prenatal
    care, neonatal care.  I can attest to this committee and anybody
    who has spent any time in the outer islands of the  that health
    care, and in particular prenatal and neonatal care, is abysmally
    poor universally.  That is, there is no one particular island
    that stands out in the outer islands as having excellent health
    care.  So, I don't see that as a compounding variable either.

    I direct the committee's attention to Pages 6, 7 and 8
    of my statement.  On Page 6 is the data, the data tables.  Page 7
    shows what I call adverse births or congenital anomalies; that
    is, I combined miscarriages and still births, and I made a
    division between pre-1952 and post-1952 in the Marshals.  The
    reason being that the thermo-nuclear weapons experiments started
    at Eniwetok in 1952.  Prior to that, they were atomic weapons in
    the kiloton range. Beginning in 1952, the weapons, thermo-nuclear
    weapons, the hydrogen bombs, were in the megaton range, and the
    fall-out from the megaton range weapons we now know was
    distributed pretty uniformly throughout the Marshals more --
    obviously higher doses to the northern islands, closer to Bikini,
    and less fall-out further away.

    So, that's the reason I chose '52 as the cut-off point.
    On Page 7, the graph indicates that prior to 1952, before the
    onset of the thermo-nuclear weapons, adverse births were randomly
    distributed throughout the Marshals.  A pattern doesn't really
    emerge until you turn the page to Page 8, post-'52. After the
    large hydrogen bomb weapons, we see a distinct correlation
    between distance from Bikini and that being the independent
    variable and the incidence rate of congenital anomalies.

    As you move further away from Bikini, that is the three
    atolls furthest away, the southern islands, Rongelap, Anorik and
    Mili, we see that they have the lowest incidence rate of
    congenital anomalies.

    Now, this is a preliminary survey.  This is a
    pioneering effort in the , and I am here to request one item from
    this committee.  I did not bring a long laundry list.  I brought
    one particular item.  I tried to crystalize my statement into one
    request.

    It seems pretty clear to me that 41 years after Bravo
    and the very large thermo-nuclear weapons in the , we still have
    an uncertain prognosis vis-a-vis women, and I would urge this
    committee to recommend initiation of a larger follow-up study to
    my study, a larger systematic epidemiological study of the women
    and reproduction in the .

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you, Mr. Alcalay.  Thank you for your
    material.

    Are there questions?  Ruth?

    DR. MACKLIN:  I'd just like to have one clarification
    about --

    MR. ALCALAY:  Yes.

    DR. MACKLIN:  -- the words you used and the items that
    you're measuring.  You have miscarriages.  You have still births,
    and then you have what you call adverse births, which you define
    as still births and miscarriages combined, and yet in your --
    when you -- in your oral statement, you referred to congenital
    anomalies.

    Did you look at something other than deaths?  I mean
    miscarriages and still births are adverse outcomes that did not
    result in a live birth.  Did you look at anything that would be
    called congenital anomalies in births, in live births?

    MR. ALCALAY:  Yes.  Thank you for the question.

    In my data collection, and I'm still assessing the
    data, I have a ton of data, it's going to take me several more
    months to sift through it, I also collected data from all these
    women in my survey about children born with serious maladies.  I
    would include those in congenital anomalies as well.

    Also, another facet of this research which will come
    out in a few months has to do with resident histories.  The
    Marshall Islanders, unlike our popular romantic images of island
    people, do not stay put.  There's a high degree of mobility.
    It's important to know where a particular women resided, say, in
    1954, did she live in Rongelap, a 120 miles from Bikini, or was
    she at Alamonwah Shopping Center in Hawaii several thousand miles
    away.

    So, I'm also assessing those data, but I hope that
    clarifies.

    DR. MACKLIN:  Yes.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you.  Are there other questions for
    Mr. Alcalay?

    (No response)

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you very much for the material.

    MR. ALCALAY:  Thank you very much.

    DR. FADEN:  Good luck with your dissertation.

    MR. ALCALAY:  Thank you.

    (Applause)

    DR. FADEN:  Our next speaker is Ms. Denise Nelson.  Is
    Ms. Nelson with us this morning -- this afternoon?  Excuse me.  I
    keep getting my time of day confused.  Thank you for taking the
    time to come here, Ms. Nelson.

                  Statement of Denise Nelson

                      Bethesda, Maryland

    MS. NELSON:  There was no blame to be assessed, no
    responsibility to be assumed.  What had happened was somehow
    inevitable.  Not the doing of man but of circumstances.  These
    are the words of Adolf

    Eichmann.  Never, not once did the man convey anything  but the
    feeling that everything he had done was totally appropriate.  If
    the conscience stops functioning, even occasionally, one is in
    mortal danger of losing one's self.

    He was a soldier.  In this, he took enormous pride, and
    a soldier is never entirely his own man.  When decisions were
    made by those above and orders issued, they had to be obeyed.
    This was duty, and his moral responsibility.

    For it is not just about the unspeakable evil
    perpetrated by the agents of Nazism, but about the astonishing
    capacity of those not wholly unlike ourselves for self-
    justification.   The ease with which in the interest of an
    ideology or simple ambition seemingly normal souls escaped their
    better selves.

    Evil is most disturbing when it is common place.
    Eichmann was the perfect example of the obedient, dedicated
    government loyalist who had put the whole before the individual.
    Over 400,000 Hungarian Jews found their way to human
    experimentation and death solely because of the actions of this
    man.

    Today, we think only of the Nuremberg Code, but prior
    to the Nuremberg Code came the Nuremberg Decrees of 1935, which
    stripped Jews of their basic rights, took away their financial
    and social liveli-hood, and marked the beginning of a massive
    classification of sensitive national security documents.

    Almost the same thing happened in this country at the
    beginning of the Cold War.  Residents of Southern Utah and Nevada
    were identified in AEC documents as a low-use segment of the
    population.  In other words, disposable.

    The rights, health and livelihood of these fall-out
    victims were torn from them and documents about their health,
    exposure levels, medical examinations, and experimentation were
    classified.

    50 years later, the bodies of these people have been
    carefully buried one-by-one in nice little graves with lots of
    flowers, but I for one cannot ever look at the graves in St.
    George, Utah, without thinking of a mass grave and unjustified
    premature deaths.  The parallels are undeniable.

    When I hear that some children in Southern Utah -- when
    I heard that some children in Southern Utah received film badges
    and others did not, I could not help but think of the Star of
    David, which was so clearly the sign of another low-use segment
    of the population.

    Was it justified to expose the thousands of children
    who lived in a virtually uninhabited area as it was described by
    the AEC to radioactive food, air and water?  If so, then who are
    we to say that to kill by gassing is wrong?

    The children of Southern Utah are dead and dying.  If
    there was no harm in the clouds, why did they always wait until
    the clouds blew away from Las Vegas?  If there was not enough
    radiation to cause harm, why did the government apologize for the
    sacrifice the people of Utah have made in the interest of
    national security?  If there was no harm done, why did the
    Congress pass a compensation act which places a $50,000 value on
    the life of each man, woman and child who dies of certain
    cancers?

    The enormous medical costs were not addressed.  The
    families slid into poverty.  Children lost out on education, and
    once well-to-do hard-working families were driven apart and
    bitter.  The compensation act has failed miserably.

    Some families have lost several members and because of
    the restrictive nature of the bill, no compensation is paid.  The
    loss of a child is small indeed to this government, but it is
    colossal to a mother and father.

    Past and present politicians use the words "small
    sacrifice" to address the loss of a child, and this attitude
    should make us fear for our lives because once it no longer
    bothers us to see mangled bodies, it will no longer bother us to
    mangle them ourselves.

    Evil can simply be defined as the use of political
    power to destroy others for the purpose of defending our sick
    selves.  Just as the Jews had no protection in Nazi Germany, the
    Constitution of the United States of America does not protect its
    children.

    When the AEC was asked, who has the responsibility for
    the safety and welfare of persons and property near areas of
    possible fall-out, the answer was, it is the responsibility of
    the heads of families and the owners of property to protect the
    members of their families and their property from possible
    radioactive fall-out.

    Any group will remain potentially evil and without
    conscience until such time when every single individual becomes
    directly responsible for their own behavior and deeds.

    Eichmann was the only man ever executed in the state of
    Israel.  Justice prevailed, and it did not heal the wound, but it
    satisfied the soul.  Heroic action brought him to trial, as it
    will take heroic action to reveal the truth about Fall-Out City.

    If the fall-out was -- if the fall-out which was
    purposefully directed toward a healthy population was not an
    experiment, or even one of planned opportunity, then it was just
    simply a criminal act of mass genocide.

    There was no blame to be assessed.  No responsibility
    to be assumed.  This was Eichmann's view.  I hope that this
    committee is composed of individuals who respect the right of
    each human being to live in safety, in dignity, and with the
    understanding that if their life is taken from them prematurely,
    for whatever reason, justice under the law must punish the
    guilty, so that all souls may rest in peace.

    Thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you very much, Ms. Nelson.  Very
    eloquent statement.

    Are there --

    (Applause)

    DR. FADEN:  -- Ms. Nelson, Ms. Nelson, excuse me, I
    think we have some questions, if you would -- Lois?

    MS. NORRIS:  Thank you, Ms. Nelson.  Could you direct
    me to the source of the quote in your written statement?  It's
    the third paragraph.  The AEC's response to the question, saying
    that it is the responsibility of the heads of families.

    MS. NELSON:  That came out of the book "Under the
    Cloud" by Richard Miller, and I think I referenced it on the
    bottom of the second page.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you.  Duncan?

    DR. THOMAS:  Again, thank you for an eloquent
    statement.

    MS. NELSON:  Thank you.

    DR. THOMAS:  The same question regarding the AEC
    document that you quote on the first page about the low-use
    segment.

    MS. NELSON:  Yes.

    DR. THOMAS:  Where does that come from?

    MS. NELSON:  That came actually out of the book by
    Carole Gallagher.  I'm not sure of -- "American Ground Zero".

    DR. THOMAS:  "American Ground Zero"?

    MS. NELSON:  Yes.

    DR. THOMAS:  Have you seen that document itself?

    MS. NELSON:  It was an internal memo.  I have not seen
    that myself, but I believe that somebody else that has worked
    with some of the radiation victims does have a copy of that memo.

    DR. THOMAS:  I've heard reference to this document
    before, and I haven't seen it either.  I don't know whether the
    staff has.

    I have the vague recollection that --

    MS. NELSON:  I would like to find it out myself.  I'd
    like to see the original.

    DR. THOMAS:  Yes.  Me, too, because I --

    MS. NELSON:  Yes.

    DR. THOMAS:  -- have heard reference to an earlier
    discussion, where someone, and I don't recall whom, was saying
    that that statement was referring to the land and not to the
    people, and I think it's really important to get to the bottom of
    that.

    MS. NELSON:  Well, there are actually two statements.
    One was a low-use segment of the population, and another one was
    virtually uninhabited.

    DR. THOMAS:  Well, if anyone, yourself or any of the
    other members of the audience, can point us in the direction of
    the original documents, it would --

    MS. NELSON:  Okay.  I will make a note of it.

    DR. THOMAS:  -- be very important for us.

    MS. NELSON:  I will make a note of that, to look those
    up for you.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you very much, Ms. Nelson.

    MS. NELSON:  Thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  We appreciate it.

    We next have a panel of people who have asked to
    present, and again please forgive me if I'm not pronouncing
    people's names correctly, but we have Ms. Chris DeNicola, Ms.
    Valerie Wolf, and Ms. Claudia Mullen.  Are you all of New
    Orleans, is that correct?

    MS. WOLF:  Yes, that is correct.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you for making the effort to come up
    to speak to us today.

         Statement of Chris DeNicola, Valerie Wolf and
            Claudia Mullen, New Orleans, Louisiana

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    MS. WOLF:  Okay.  I'm going to start.  My name is
    Valerie Wolf.

    In listening to the testimony today, it all sounds
    really familiar.  I am here to talk about a possible link between
    radiation and mind-control experimentation that began in the late
    1940s.

    The main reason that mind-control research is being
    mentioned is because people are alleging that they were exposed
    as children to mind-control radiation drugs and chemical
    experimentation, which were administered by the same doctors who
    are known to have been involved in conducting both radiation and
    mind-control research.

    Written documentation has been provided revealing the
    names of people and the names of research projects in statements
    from people across the country.

    It is also important to understand that mind-control
    techniques and follow-ups into adulthood may have been used to
    intimidate these particular research subjects into not talking
    about their victimization in government research.

    As a therapist for the past 22 years, I have
    specialized in treating victims and perpetrators of trauma and
    their families.  When word got out that I was appearing at this
    hearing, nearly 40 therapists across the country, and I had about
    a week and a half to prepare, contacted me to talk about clients
    who had reported being subjects in radiation and mind-control
    experiments.

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    The consistency of people's stories about the purpose
    of the mind-control and pain-induction techniques, such as
    electric shock, use of hallucinogens, sensory deprivation,
    hypnosis, dislocation of limbs and sexual abuse, is remarkable.

    There is almost nothing published on this aspect of
    mind-control used with children, and these clients come from all
    over the country, having had no contact with each other.

    What was startlingly was that therapists reported many
    of these clients were also physically ill with auto-immune
    problems, thyroid problems, multiple sclerosis, and other muscle
    and connective tissue diseases as well as mysterious ailments for
    which a diagnosis cannot be found.

    While somatization disorder is commonly found in these
    clients, many of the clients who have been involved in the human
    experimentation with the government have multiple medically-
    documented physical ailments, and I was really shocked today to
    hear one of the speakers talk about the cysts and the teeth
    breaking off, because I have a client that that's happening to.

    Many people are afraid to tell their doctors their
    histories as mind-control subjects for fear of being considered
    to be crazy.  These clients have named some of the same people,
    particularly a Dr. Green, who was associated with clients'
    reports of childhood induction of pain, mind-control techniques,
    and childhood sexual abuse.

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    One of my clients, who had seen him with a name tag,
    identified him as Dr. L. Wilson Green.  A person with this same
    name was the scientific director of the Chemical and Radiological
    Laboratories at the Army Chemical Center, and that he was engaged
    in doing research for the Army and other intelligence agencies.

    Other names that have come to light are Dr. Sidney
    Gottlieb and Dr. Martin Orne, who, it is reported, were also
    involved in radiation research.

    [REPEAT:  "...WERE ALSO INVOLVED IN RADIATION RESEARCH"]

    It needs to be made clear that people have remembered
    these names and events spontaneously with free recall and without
    the use of any memory-retrievable techniques, such as hypnosis.
    As much as possible, we have tried to verify the memories with
    family members, records and experts in the field.

    Many attempts have been made through Freedom of
    Information Act filings to gain access to the mind-control
    research documentation.  These requests have generally been
    slowed down or denied, although some information has been
    obtained, which suggests that at least some of the information
    supplied by these clients is true.

    It is important that we obtain all of the information
    contained in the CIA and military files to verify or deny our
    clients' memories.  Although many of the files for MK Ultra may
    have been destroyed, whatever is left, along with the files for
    other projects, such as Bluebird and Artichoke, to name only two,
    contain valuable information.

    Furthermore, if, as the evidence suggests, some of
    these people were used in radiation experiments, there might be
    information in the mind-control experiment file on radiation
    experiments.

    We need this information to help in the rehabilitation
    and treatment of many people who have severe psychological and
    medical problems which interfere with their social, emotional and
    financial well-being.

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    Finally, I urge you to recommend an investigation into
    these matters.  Although there was a commission on mind-control,
    it did not include experiments on children because most of them
    were too young or still involved in the research in the late
    1970s to come forward.

    The only way to end the harassment and suffering of
    these people is to make public what has happened to them in the
    mind-control experiments.  Please recommend that there be an
    investigation and that the files be opened on the mind-control
    experiments as they related to children.

    Thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you.

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    MS. DeNICOLA:  Good afternoon.  I'm Christine DeNicola,
    born July 1962, rendering me 32 years of age.

    I was a subject in radiation as well as mind-control and drug
    experiments performed by a man I knew as Dr. Green.

    My parents were divorced around 1966, and Donald
    Richard Ebner, my natural father, was involved with Dr. Green in
    the experiments.  I was a subject from 1966 to 1976.  Dr. Green
    performed radiation experiments on me in 1970, focusing on my
    neck, throat and chest in 1972, focusing on my chest and my
    uterus in 1975.

    Each time I became dizzy, nauseous and threw up.  All
    these experiments were performed on me in conjunction with mind-
    control techniques and drugs in Tucson, Arizona.

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    Dr. Green was using me mostly as a mind-control subject
    from 1966 to 1973.  His objective was to gain control of my mind
    and train me to be a spy assassin.  The first significant memory
    took place at Kansas City University in 1966.  Don Ebner took me
    there by plane when my mom was out of town.  I was in what looked
    like a laboratory, and there seemed to be other children.  I was
    strapped down, naked, spread-eagle on a table, on my back.

    Dr. Green had electrodes on my body, including my head.
    He used what looked like an overhead projector and repeatedly
    said he was burning different images into my brain while a red
    light flashed aimed at my forehead.

    In between each sequence, he used electric shock on my
    body and told me to go deeper and deeper, while repeating each
    image would go deeper into my brain, and I would do whatever he
    told me to do.

    I felt drugged because he had given me a shot before he
    started the procedure.  When it was over, he gave me another
    shot.  The next thing I remember, I was with my grandparents
    again in Tucson, Arizona.  I was four years old.

    You can see from this experiment that Dr. Green used
    trauma, drugs, post-hypnotic suggestion and more trauma in an
    effort to gain total control of my mind.  He used me in radiation
    experiments, both for the purposes of determining the effects of
    radiation on various parts of my body and to terrorize me as an
    additional trauma in the mind-control experiments.

    The rest of the experiments took place in Tucson,
    Arizona, out in the desert.  I was taught how to pick locks, be
    secretive, use my photographic memory, and a technique to
    withhold information by repeating numbers to myself.

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    Dr. Green moved on to wanting me to kill dolls that
    looked like real children.  I stabbed a doll with a spear once
    after being severely traumatized, but the next time, I refused.
    He used many pain-induction techniques, but as I got older, I
    resisted more and more.

    He often tied me down in a cage, which was near his
    office.  Between 1972 and 1976, he and his assistants were
    sometimes careless and left the cage unlocked.  Whenever
    physically possible, I snuck into his office and found files with
    reports and memos addressed to CIA and military personnel.

    Included in these files were project, sub-project,
    subject and experiment names with some code numbers for radiation
    and mind-control experiments, which I have submitted in your
    written documentation.

    I was caught twice, and Dr. Green ruthlessly used
    electric shock, drugs, spun me on a table, put shots in my
    stomach and my back, dislocated my joints, and hypnotic
    techniques to make me feel crazy and suicidal.

    Because of my rebellion and growing lack of
    cooperation, they gave up on me as a spy assassin.  Consequently,
    the last two years, 1974 to 1976, Dr. Green used various mind-
    control techniques to reverse the spy assassin messages, to self-
    destruct and death messages.

    His purpose.  He wanted me dead, and I have struggled
    to stay alive all of my adult life, all of my adult life.  I
    believe it is by the grace of God that I am still alive.

    These horrible experiments have profoundly affected my
    life.  I developed multiple personality disorder because Dr.
    Green's goal was to split my mind into as many parts as possible
    so he could control me totally.  He failed.  But I've had to
    endure years of constant physical, mental and emotional pain even
    to this day.

    I've been in therapy consistently for 12 years, and it
    wasn't until I found my current therapist two and a half years
    ago, who had knowledge of the mind-control experiments, that I
    finally have been able to make real progress and begin to heal.

    In closing, I ask that you keep in mind that the
    memories I have described are but a glimpse of the countless
    others that took place over the 10 years between 1966 and 1976,
    that they weren't just radiation but mind-control and drug
    experiments as well.

    I have included more detailed information of what I
    remember in your written documentation.  Please help us by
    recommending an investigation and making the information
    available so that therapists and other mental health
    professionals can help more people like myself.

    I know I can get better.  I am getting better, and I
    know others can, too, with the proper help.  Please help us in an
    effort to prevent these heinous acts from continuing in the
    future.

    Thank you very much.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you.

    (Applause)

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    MS. MULLEN:  Good afternoon.

    Between the years of 1957 and 1974, I became a pawn in
    the government's game, whose ultimate goal was mind-control and
    to create the perfect spy, all through the use of chemicals,
    radiation, drugs, hypnosis, electric shock, isolation in tubs of
    water, sleep deprivation, brain-washing, verbal, physical,
    emotional and sexual abuse.

    I was exploited unwittingly for nearly three decades of
    my life, and the only explanations given to me were that "the end
    justifies the means", and "I was serving my country in their bold
    effort to fight communism".

    I can only summarize my circumstances by saying they
    took an already-abused seven-year old child and compounded my
    suffering beyond belief.  The saddest part is I know for a fact
    that I was not alone.  There were countless other children in my
    same situation, and there was no one to help us until now.

    I've already submitted as much information as possible,
    including conversations overheard of the agencies responsible.
    I'm able to report all this to you in such detail because of my
    photographic memory and the arrogance of the doctors -- the
    arrogance of the people involved.  They were certain they would
    always control my mind.

    Although the process of recalling these atrocities is
    not an easy one, nor is it without some danger to myself and my
    family, I feel the risk is worth taking.

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    Dr. L. Wilson Green, who claimed to have received $50
    million from the Edgewood Chemical and Radiology Laboratory as
    part of a TSD or technical science division of the CIA, once
    described to Dr. Charles Brown that "children were used as
    subjects because they were more fun to work and cheaper, too."
    They needed lower profile subjects than soldiers or government
    people.

    So, only young willing females would do.  Besides, he
    said, "I like scaring them.  They and the agency think I'm a god,
    creating subjects experiments for whatever deviant purposes Sid
    and James could think up."  Sid being Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, James,
    Dr. James Hamilton.

    In 1958, I was to be tested, they told me, by some
    important doctors from the society or the Human Ecology Society,
    and I was instructed to cooperate.  I was told not to look at
    anyone's faces, and not -- try hard not to ignore -- to try hard
    not to ignore any names as this was a very secret project, but I
    was told that all these things would help me forget.

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    Naturally, as most children do, I did the opposite, and
    I remembered as much as I could, but Dr. John Gittinger tested
    me, Dr. Cameron gave me the shots, and Dr. Green the x-rays.

    Then I was told by Sid Gottlieb that "I was ripe for
    the big A" meaning Artichoke.  By the time I left to go home,
    just like every time from then on, I would remember only whatever
    explanations Dr. Robert G. Heath of Tulane Medical University
    gave me for the odd bruises, needle marks, burns on my head,
    fingers, and even the genital soreness.  I had no reason to
    believe otherwise.  They had already begun to control my mind.

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    The next year, I was sent to a lodge in Maryland called
    Deep Creek Cabins to learn how to sexually please men.  I was
    taught how to coerce them into talking about themselves, and it
    was Richard Helms, who was deputy director of the CIA, Dr.
    Gottlieb, George White, Morris Allen, were all planning on
    filming as many high government agency officials and heads of
    academic institutions and foundations as possible, so that later,
    when the funding for mind-control and radiation started to
    dwindle, projects would continue.

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    I was used to entrap many unwitting men, including
    themselves, all with the use of a hidden camera.  I was only nine
    years old when this sexual humiliation began.  I overheard
    conversations about a part of the agency called Ord, which I
    found out was Office of Research and Development.  It was run by
    Dr. Green, Dr. Steven Aldridge, Martin Orne, and Morris Allen.

    Once a crude remark was made by Dr. Gottlieb about a
    certain possible leak over New Orleans involving a large group of
    retarded children who were being given massive doses of
    radiation.  He asked why was Wilson so worried about a few
    retarded kids, after all, they would be the least likely to spill
    the beans.

    Another time, I heard Dr. Martin Orne, who was the
    director then of the scientific office, and later head of the
    Institute for Experimental Research state that, "In order to keep
    more funding coming from different sources for radiation and
    mind-control projects, he suggested stepping up the amounts of
    stressors used and also the blackmail portion of the
    experiments".  He said it needed to be done faster and to get rid
    of the subjects or they were asking for us to come back later and
    haunt them with our remembrances.

    There's much more I could tell you about government-
    sponsored research, including project names, cell project
    numbers, people involved, facilities used, tests and other forms
    of pain induction, but I think I've given more than enough
    information to recommend further investigation of all the mind-
    control projects, especially as they involve so much abuse of the
    radiation.

    I would love nothing more than to say that I had
    dreamed the whole thing up and need just to forget it, but that
    would be a tragic mistake.  It would also be a lie.

    All these atrocities did occur to me and to countless
    other children, and all under the guise of defending our country.
    It is because of the cumulative effects of exposure to radiation,
    chemicals, drugs, pain and subsequent mental and physical
    distress that I've been robbed of the ability to work and even to
    bear any children of my own.

    It is blatantly obvious that none of this was needed
    nor should it ever have been allowed to take place at all, and
    the only means we have to seek out the awful truth and bring it
    to light is by opening whatever files remain on all the projects
    and through another presidential commission on mind-control.

    I believe that every citizen of this nation has the
    right to know just what is fact and what is fiction.  It is our
    greatest protection against the possibility of this ever
    happening again.

    In conclusion, I can offer you no more than what I've
    given you today, the truth, and I thank you for your time.

    (Applause)

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you for your presentations.  We
    appreciate that this is not an easy thing to do.

    Are there comments or questions from the committee?
    Duncan?

    DR. THOMAS:  Could I ask either of you, where were your
    parents through all this?  Do you have any idea how you were
    recruited in the first place?  Did they -- do you have parents,
    and did your parents know anything about what was going on?

    MS. DeNICOLA:  I can make a brief statement on that.
    It was my father who was involved with Dr. Green.  My mother was
    not aware because they were divorced when I was four years old.
    Well, maybe before that, separated, and what would happen, how he
    gained access to me is these experiments took place actually in
    the middle of the night, and he would sneak in while my mom was
    asleep and take me out, and she had absolutely no knowledge of
    what happened.

    However, when these memories did surface, and I began
    to tell her about them, she -- there was no question in her mind
    that he was capable.  He had been in the military, in the Air
    Force.  He had access to meet Dr. Green.

    So, in answer to your question, it was my father.  He
    groomed me from the very beginning, started sexually abusing me
    from the very beginning, and it was just something that he wanted
    to do, and he was closely involved with Dr. Green, but my mom had
    no knowledge.

    The only thing she knew was that she wanted to get away
    from him.  She didn't know why.  She just knew she had to get
    away from him because of my reaction to him.  I'm sorry.  I
    didn't mean to go on.  Thank you.

    MS. MULLEN:  Do you want an answer from me, also?

    DR. THOMAS:  It's up to you.

    MS. MULLEN:  If you want.  The way I got involved was I
    was adopted when I was two and a half by a woman who sexually
    abused me, and then she was a friend of the chairman of the board
    of Tulane University at the time, and as a favor to him, she -- I
    began to show symptoms of, you know, typical of childhood abuse,
    when I was very, very young, and she asked him to recommend a
    psychiatrist, and he recommended Dr. Heath, who was involved with
    the project already, and, so, when he discovered that I already
    had been abused from the time I was practically born, and that I
    was -- had the ability to associate and that I had almost perfect
    recall, and I passed all the personality tests that they gave me,
    he suggested me for the project, and, so, that's how I got
    involved into it.

    My father had no idea, and he died when I was very
    young, but I don't know if my mother knew or not.  I don't think
    she really cared, to tell you the truth, and then she died when I
    was teenager.  So, after that, they had access to me.

    DR. FADEN:  Lois?

    MS. NORRIS:  You mentioned that there are others across
    the country who are coming -- who are recalling similar things.
    Do they all cover the same time span, generally, or do you have a
    feel for that?

    MS. WOLF:  Yeah.  Generally, they cover the same time
    span from about the late 1940s until -- see, one of the things
    that we're hearing about is people that were assigned to monitor
    them in case they should start to remember because it's so
    horrible what was done, so we're not exactly sure when the actual
    experimentation took place and when it got into just the
    monitoring to make sure that they were still under control, and
    not everybody is being monitored.

    So, but, yeah, pretty much, I think, from the late '40s
    through the 1970s, and maybe even into 1984.

    MS. MULLEN:  Later than that, I found out, because
    after my parents died, then there was no one to protect me, to
    monitor that she spoke of.  My particular monitor was a physician
    at Tulane University, and, so, he was a family friend, also, of
    my mother's, and he just kept on making sure that I kept going
    back and forgetting.

    MS. WOLF:  So, it's kind of unclear as to when --
    whether it stopped or whether it -- you know, where the --

    MS. MULLEN:  They still monitor you, though.  That's
    why I am taking some danger in coming here today, because I'm
    still being watched.

    MS. WOLF:  I know this sounds unbelievable, but I mean
    there's actual -- she gets stuff in the mail. She gets phone
    calls.  People have been writing things on her house, using the
    pseudonym that they used when she was at Tulane, and only they
    have knowledge of that name.

    MS. MULLEN:  My real name was never used, ever, in
    anything.  So.

    MS. NORRIS:  Were they all children at the time?

    MS. WOLF:  Yeah.  All children.  And the thing is, is
    as therapists, we are trying really hard to figure this out, and
    to get as much information as we can.

    Claudia's memories have been verified, a lot of them,
    because the way I have approached this is as I don't read in the
    field.  I don't -- and, so, as people give me information, I send
    them to experts, like Alan Scheflin, who has a lot of
    information, and then he'll get back to me to confirm or deny.
    He has never denied any information that I've sent him.

    Some of it can't be because we don't have all the
    information, but a lot of Claudia's memories have been validated,
    and they're not in any published source.  The only way she would
    know the things she knows is if she filed Freedom of Information
    Act information, and this is what Alan Scheflin is telling me.

    So, I have every -- and then I have been very careful
    not to know a whole lot, so if someone tells me something, I
    don't even cue them that -- because I don't know either.

    DR. THOMAS:  It seems to me that documentary evidence
    is going to be key to establishing the truth of these cases.

    MS. WOLF:  Yes, absolutely.

    DR. THOMAS:  It's hard for me to imagine that a program
    as large and as complex as you people have described could have
    gone on for so long without a great deal of documentation.

    The question is where is this documentation now?  It
    becomes a Catch-22 if it is said that all of the documentation
    resides within the CIA files, and all of it's secret, and they
    won't give it to us.  But what you've described is a pattern of
    very complex organization which involves plenty of people outside
    of the CIA as well.

    Therefore, there must be a substantial amount of
    documentation which could be discovered.  You just mentioned
    about the letters that some of you are still receiving.  There is
    a lead to documentation.

    Can you describe for me what efforts have been made,
    either by yourselves or by other people who are working on this
    story, to try to track down some of this documentation, and what
    you meant a moment ago when you said that some of these memories
    have been verified or validated?

    MS. WOLF:  Okay.  Dr. Alan Scheflin, and you have his
    resume in the documentation and a statement from him about
    Claudia in your documentation, he has been for the past 20 years
    filing Freedom of Information Act filings to get this
    information, has been piecing it all together.

    Other people across the country have been doing the
    same, going back to the government files, getting what they can,
    and what they've also been doing is writing books, sharing
    information.  So, he has actual Freedom of Information Act
    information.

    The problem is that it's -- when the requests are going
    in now, they're being slowed down or denied or just kind of lost
    in the shuffle, and the information is very difficult to get.

    DR. THOMAS:  I'm sorry.  I don't see the documentation
    in the package that was provided to me.  Is there something
    missing?

    MS. MULLEN:  I have -- I supplied --

    MS. WOLF:  I sent a --

    MS. MULLEN:  -- project numbers, names.

    MS. WOLF:  -- packet of documentation overnight mail,
    should have been here Monday, and some more yesterday.  So, maybe
    it isn't --

    DR. FADEN:  If we haven't received it, we'll let you
    know.

    MS. WOLF:  Okay.  I sent the first one to Steve
    Klaidman, and the second one to Kristen Crotty.  You have it?

    COMMITTEE MEMBER:  Yes, we have some of this material.

    MS. WOLF:  Okay.  And, again, it was, you know, what I
    could pull together in about a week and a half from across the
    country, but the consistency of the stories, and the thing is, we
    want to verify it.

    So, Alan has amassed over 20 years from Freedom of
    Information Act, from memos other people give him or sharing
    information, a lot of information, but we don't have the complete
    story.  There's still a lot of stuff that we don't know, and
    that's what we're trying to find out because --

    DR. THOMAS:  Does any of this documentation
    specifically refer to radiation experiments?  Because we are told
    by CIA that they never did any radiation experiments.  So, what
    we need is documentation in order to pursue that.

    MS. MULLEN:  All you have to do is look up anything on
    Ord, the one that I mentioned that I overheard them speaking
    about. That was almost strictly radiation, and that was run by
    Dr. Steven Aldridge, Martin Orne.

    DR. THOMAS:  And that's appeared in the package which
    you sent Steve Klaidman?

    MS. MULLEN:  Yes, and I gave you project numbers,
    project names, sub-project numbers, even the subjects.  We were
    given numbers ourselves for each specific experiment, and I
    overheard my number because they would -- they would assume that
    -- they would use techniques so that you would forget.  You know,
    when you go home, you wouldn't remember what happened.  So, they
    just talked freely in front of me.  That's why no one ever hid
    their face or wore a mask or anything, because they knew that I
    would not remember, and I didn't. I didn't remember until two
    years ago.

    MS. WOLF:  And, also, I think you can follow up on Dr.
    L. Wilson Green.  I don't know if you've come across him, but he
    seems to have been involved in both, and I think realistically,
    in terms of the mind-controls, some of the subjects were used in
    mind-control radiation.  Some, as you've been hearing, have been
    strictly radiation, and some were strictly mind-control.

    I think the reason it's coming up now is because in
    some of the stuff people are remembering, they knew that it would
    break down.  They really worked hard to induce amnesia, and they
    knew it would break down, and I think in the last couple of
    years, that that's what's been happening, because we're hearing
    more and more, and, you know, -- so, we're just trying to find
    out what's happening here.  That's -- so, we'd appreciate any
    help you could give us on that.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you.  Did you want to make --

    MS. DeNICOLA:  Yes, I did.  I just wanted to address
    you for a moment.  The question you asked about the documentation
    on radiation specifically.  Included in my packet, and I don't
    know if you have that or not, there is - it's entitled,
    "Radiation File Information".  There are names of subjects names,
    experiment names, and some code numbers that I remembered, and
    the problem is we have no way of verifying this without opening
    the files.

    I mean I --

    MS. WOLF:  You have them.

    MS. DeNICOLA:  Yeah.

    MS. WOLF:  You have what she remembers, and you have
    what Claudia remembers.

    MS. DeNICOLA:  Do you have the documentation?

    DR. THOMAS:  All I have from you is your three-page --
    four-page -- three-page document.

    MS. WOLF:  There is a whole packet of information.

    DR. FADEN:  We can clarify that.

    DR. THOMAS:  I gather the staff has it.  So, we can get
    that.

    DR. FADEN:  We can clarify what we don't have, what we
    do have, and whatever it is we can put together, and we thank you
    very much --

    MS. WOLF:  Okay.  Thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  -- for your traveling from New Orleans to
    present to us.

    We have two more presenters.  I'm sorry.  We have two
    more presenters who are waiting, and we owe them the courtesy of
    hearing from them.

    I understand that Mr. Schwartz is now with us.  If you
    would wait, and we'll just make sure that you get on, but we have
    Ms. Starr.  Ms. Suzzanne Starr is here.  Thank you, Ms. Starr.
    And you're traveling from New Mexico?

    MS. STARR:  Yes, thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you for coming.

                  Statement of Suzzanne Starr

                      Chimayo, New Mexico

    MS. STARR:  This is my husband, and he's sitting here
    in case I pass out.

    DR. FADEN:  Well, we hope that doesn't happen.

    MS. STARR:  I'm not going to.  You know, I just want to
    say thank you.  Thank you very much for listening to me, for
    being here, for sitting in your seats this past hour.  Thank you.

    A whole part of my life just came together.  This is
    phenomenal.  Here I am, living in a remote area of New Mexico,
    and I start remembering this really bizarre stuff.  Then I go
    back and I find the place where it happened, a place I never
    thought I had been in my life, and by gosh, it looks just like my
    recall of it, and now I sit here today, and I hear from people I
    have never met, never seen.  They have been through the same
    thing I'm experiencing.

    I don't have the names, but you know one thing that
    just shocks me is through all of my work, I keep coming up with
    this darned Delta code, Delta 5133867.  Until today, I didn't
    know what that was. It's an experimentation code.  I kept
    wondering, why do I write Delta 5133867.  What's an alpha code?
    What's a beta code?  Those are things that this nation needs to
    find out for the sake of our future, and really and truly,
    without mistake, for the sake of the salvation of our planet.

    I'm just shocked.  I'm surprised.  I am a survivor of
    secret experimentation conducted by our government on healthy
    children.  I recalled and began to recall these incidences two
    years ago.  I have been working for weeks to overcome the terror
    program so that I could be here and speak to you with dignity
    today.

    I know I survived my childhood for this moment.  These
    horrid secrets undermine the core of our society.  They exist
    only out of the power of evil.  As long as atrocity to human
    beings, particularly children, go unbelieved, they can continue.

    I have come to realize from my awakening that reality
    is a dimension beyond human beings' ability to conceive the
    truth.  When the truth comes to the light and is believed, there
    is an incredible healing for ourselves and our nation.  That is
    my hope.

    I was born in 1949.  We were very poor.  I lived in the
    mountains of Colorado.  Both of my parents have died of cancer.
    All but two of my aunts and uncles have either died of cancer or
    have cancer.

    As a child, my parents were victims of a mind-control
    organization that permitted me to be inducted into
    experimentation.  I have early recollections of people coming to
    my house.  My father was picked up on a false arrest for a
    ticket, parking ticket, and put in jail.  They came to my house,
    and they tortured me, and they held my mother until she signed a
    paper.

    I believe and I know that if she had not signed that
    paper, I would not be here today.  I believe that her signing
    this paper is related to me being brought into these experiments.
    Either she signed or I died.

    I believe our family physician, who was retired from
    the military, got children from the mountains of Colorado for the
    experiments.  He was the only doctor I have ever saw until I was
    20 years old.  The first memory I have of environmental
    deprivation was in the basement of this doctor's office.

    His office adjoined a meeting hall that was used for
    satanic rites.  I was astounded when I returned to this city not
    that long ago, two years ago, and discovered that his office and
    the adjoining chambers and the sub-chambers in that city were
    exactly as I had remembered it.

    Of course, I would remember my doctor's office, but I
    had no knowledge prior to my return and my investigation of the
    sub-chambers and of the secret things about his office.

    The incidences I have recalled happened to me between
    ages of three and 12 years old.  I was taken to a college campus
    in the summer.  We were kept in a locked dorm and taken to the
    experiment by way of underground tunnels.  I provided the name of
    that institution in my narrative.  I believe you have my
    narrative.

    I don't want to say that here in public.  One day,
    there was a lot of confusion, and a door was left open, and I
    slipped out.  I went across the campus and entered into another
    dorm.  I heard some people yelling.  I wondered down the hall.  I
    was a very type of inquisitive kind of a slip-out child, and when
    I went into the room and looked around the corner where the
    people were yelling, there was a high official from the United
    States military.  There was the man that the people in the
    program called the Nazi doctor.  They called him a Nazi.  I don't
    know who this man is.  I believe I could recognize a picture if I
    was given the opportunity, and there was one of the technicians
    at the head of the program.

    I was caught and taken into electro-shock sessions,
    something was put up my nose, and I passed out.  In recovering
    this incident, I had convulsions, which I have.  I'm not a
    seizure person, but when I am recalling these incidences,
    frequently I go into a convulsive type of episode. It's not grand
    mal.  It's just extreme shaking.

    A year and a half ago, on an investigative trip, my
    husband and I returned to that campus.  I was amazed to find it
    exactly as I had recalled it.  The two buildings where we were
    used for the experiments had been torn down in 1968, but the dorm
    that I wondered into was exactly as I remembered it.

    I recall being in a classroom with other children.  We
    were all in institution pajamas.  We were told that we were
    chosen to help serve our country.  A careful record of the
    procedures were kept.  The technicians were highly-trained
    professionals.  They were just doing their job.

    We were not to be angry at them.  An American flag hung
    in the room.  The experiments are discussed in more detail in my
    narrative.  One of the doctors, who supervised the experiments,
    was called the Nazi when he was out of the room.  The experiments
    involved environmental deprivation, to the point of forced
    psychotic states, and you know why I remember about the forced
    psychotic states that had a great impact on me because I realized
    something.  After they put me in that little cell and treated me
    like a dog and kept me there until I went into psychotic states,
    they gave me electro-shock and told me we returned you to sanity,
    so we can take your sanity away, if you ever speak, and I'm
    speaking today, and I'm not going to lose my sanity.  I'm going
    to stay nice and sound.

    The experiments also included extreme sensation on the
    brain, spin programming, breeding of children and injections.  I
    was given frequent electro-shock and mind-control sessions with
    the threat of death or insanity if I ever spoke, and through my
    recollection and these years that I have struggled for my freedom
    and the phrase that says thank God I'm free at least means a lot
    to me, through these times, I have fought self-destructive
    programmed messages to kill myself, and I know what a program
    message is, and I don't act on them.  I know the difference.

    Obviously they mis-judged my spirit and my desire to be
    free.  The experiment I wish to speak about involved radiation.
    I was strapped face down, straddled on a device like a chair that
    curved my spine in a haunch.  Needles were put in three places in
    my spine, my coccyx, my mid-spine and the base of my skull.

    To the right, there was a device with five orifices,
    five IV tubes came out and joined into one, with controls for the
    amount of fluid and frequency.  This tube was connected to the
    needles at the base of my skull.

    I was given a timed injection at my coccyx.  The
    technician had a monitor, I believe it was a Geiger counter.
    They checked my head with it.  There would be timed releases --
    released injections through the IV into the needle at the base of
    my skull -- could you get me some water -- repeatedly, which was
    monitored.

    When the injections went into my brain, it felt like
    ice spreading throughout my skull.  It was agonizing.  I had
    cuffs on my upper arms and things on my fingers.  I believe for
    vital signs.  Wires were connected to my head simulator to an
    EEG.  Often, they would say get some fluid.  They did something
    to the needles in my middle spine.  I believe they were testing
    my spinal fluid.

    Sometimes something happened to the cuffs on my arms
    that caused horrible pain.  Readings were taken again.  The
    procedure was being taught to someone.  I believe -- I believe
    that's what was happening.  They talked as if I was unconscious
    and not even human.  I recall it was explained that the
    injections were referred to as "trace" but enough to make this
    kid's head light up like a Christmas tree.

    They thought this was funny.  They kept making jokes
    about my head glowing.  They sat me up and put a tube in my nose.
    I could feel something horrible in the front of my brain, and I
    blacked out.

    In another experiment, when I -- they thought I was
    dead, they took me out of the chair, and the technician looked at
    me, and he said, "It looks like we lost this one.  Well, there's
    plenty more where she came from.  If she's brain dead, we can
    institutionalize her and use her for further experiments.  If
    she's dead, we will arrange an accident as is procedure with her
    family."

    Another experiment involved inserting air into my
    uterus and expanding the abdominal cavity with air.  This
    experiment was torturous.  Measurements were taken periodically.
    X-rays of my uterus and fallopian tubes were taken by injecting
    radioactive dye.  I know that this is a salpinghystiogram.  I had
    to have this done during fertility testing when my husband and I
    were trying to conceive a child.

    Fertility testing was so traumatic that I had to stop
    trying.  I have never had a normal pregnancy or been able to
    conceive a child.  Howsomesoever, I do remember at the age of 12
    having an induced pregnancy.  My baby boy was taken for the
    experiments.  That is the only child I have ever had, unless
    there are other abortions that I'm not aware of.

    I am willing to experience my -- to discuss my
    experiences in more detail, if any of you wish to.  I have
    suffered all my life because of this.  My life has completely
    changed now because of my recovery.

    Five years ago, I began my quest for truth.  I didn't
    perceive how much I was suffering until finally my symptoms
    diminished.  I have recovered these incidences with the help of a
    caring professional.  He has been careful to maintain a neutral
    position and does not hypnotise or lead me or influence me in any
    way, and he said he will attest to that.

    Once early in my healing, I spoke to a man who helps
    people deprogram from mind-control groups.  He told me freedom is
    in the struggle.  The good Lord knows, I have struggled to be
    free.  I am thankful that I started working on my healing of my
    body in my thirties.  The past five years, I have healed my mind
    and spirit.  Now, I am strong enough to speak the truth, the
    truth will set us free.

    There's one more thing I didn't mention.  During the
    many times, there were forced rapes.  I wanted to say one thing.
    When I was early -- a memory I've had all my life.  I always knew
    about, I always wondered what it was.

    When I was four or five years old, I used to lie in the
    bedroom when my sisters went to school in the morning, and I
    played Nazi concentration camp, and I would be the Jewish
    princess, and they would be experimenting on me and military
    people would come and rape me, and I held up to it all because I
    was such a brave girl.  I think I was a very brave girl.  I
    really do.

    I always wondered why did a four-year old fantasize
    that she was being experimented on.  Why did she think that
    people were raping her?  Now I know why.  Because it was truth.

    I wish to thank the people at the task force for
    helping me trust enough to testify.  I would never have trusted a
    government project without their  support.  I also wish to thank
    President Clinton for appointing this commission, and each of you
    especially for having the courage and the integrity to listen to
    us, the survivors of America's most horrid secret.

    I am deeply committed to exposing this most horrid
    secret.  Of course, I am terrified of repercussions, but if one
    of you hears us today, if one of you takes action, if someone in
    this room takes action, even if it's 10 years from now, this can
    change.

    I am terrified of repercussions, but I will not
    purchase peace at the price of my silence.  If life's so dear or
    peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains of
    slavery, forbid it, almighty God.  I know not what course others
    may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death, and I
    imagine you all know who said that.  My hero when I was a little
    girl, Patrick Henry.

    I do not choose death, I choose freedom, freedom to
    speak the truth.  Thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you, Ms. Starr.

    (Applause)

    DR. FADEN:  We appreciate your comments.  Thank you for
    leaving us information.

    If we have questions, could we keep them brief?
    There's one more person we need to get in.

    (No response)

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you for your material.  We appreciate
    your coming.

    MS. STARR:  Thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  Our last presenter is Mr. Steven Schwartz,
    who we missed earlier on, but he's here now.

                 Statement of Steven Schwartz

                       Washington, D.C.

    MR. SCHWARTZ:  I'll be brief.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you, Mr. Schwartz.

    MR. SCHWARTZ:  Thank you.

    Madam Chair, members of the committee, my name is
    Steven Schwartz.  I'm a guest scholar at the Brookings
    Institution just up the street here in Washington, D.C., where
    I'm directing a project, attempting to assess the comprehensive,
    historical and potential future year costs of the U.S. nuclear
    weapons program from its inception in 1940 through the present.

    I'm here today to explain a little bit of what we're
    doing, but also to share with you some of the experiences we have
    had in trying to track down some documentation which in talking
    with Mr. Guttman and other members of your staff, I understand
    it's a little bit similar in terms of the problems that we're
    running into.

    Actually, you have more money.  You've got a bigger
    staff.  You've got a bigger presence in Washington, and you've
    got a presidential directive.  Other than that, we're pretty much
    the same.

    I would -- so you understand some of the road blocks
    that we're up against here, the project got underway last May,
    and it's going pretty well.  One of the -- basically, we're
    looking for cost data.  So, in a way, we're sort of looking for
    discrete sets of data, and you would think that given what we're
    looking for, what you're looking for, that we would have the
    easier time of it.

    In fact, and it could be due to the fact that you have
    a presidential directive, we're not succeeding as well as I would
    have liked.  A part of that is because a lot of the
    documentation, unfortunately, doesn't exist.  Either it was
    destroyed a long time ago, because it was felt to be irrelevant,
    or it was never collected in the first place, and here I'm
    speaking principally of the Department of Energy and its
    predecessor, the Atomic Energy Commission.

    Of course, the edict in the early years was produce,
    produce, produce and let's not worry about anything else, and it
    turns out that worrying about what we were spending really wasn't
    a factor as long as the money was being spent.

    We've uncovered some wonderful memos from the Atomic
    Energy Commission staff in the early 1950s saying things like
    gosh, we're spending a $100 million a month, and we don't know
    what we're spending it on.  We ought to find this out, which is
    pretty amazing.

    So, we're running into a little difficulty there.  The
    department has fairly recently, I guess, opened up the Open Net
    which you can access on the Internet, which is a fairly useful
    way of tracking down information.  There are some limitations.
    The software only allows you to look at the first 40 items in
    your search.  They will mail you the rest at cost, which is
    obviously expensive and burdensome and sort of limits the
    capability of the system, but it's better than nothing.

    One experience that I had there recently, which does
    tie in with the work that you're doing, is I requested some
    information on troop use tests at the Nevada test site, and a
    whole slew of documents came up on the screen, wrote down the
    numbers, E-mailed it in to them, didn't have to pick up the phone
    once. It was wonderful.

    I got back a pile of stuff in a box about a month
    later, which, given my other experience with retrieving
    information via FOIA, was incredible.  I just actually got a call
    the other day from a FOIA officer at DOD who tried to reach me at
    my previous job, and when I told him that I was no longer there,
    he said, oh, thank you.

    So, I have no idea what that request was.  I told my
    successor at my previous job to follow up with this gentleman,
    that clearly this is not strictly a legal operation, and they
    probably have some interest in what I'd requested for them in the
    past.

    But getting back to DOE and the Open Net, in the
    package of materials that we requested, three documents were
    missing.  They all had sheets.  One of them said that it was
    simply not there.  They couldn't say anything more about it.  The
    other two said that they had been remanded back to DOE
    headquarters for review 10 years ago, and when I wrote back to
    them, and I said could you tell me a little bit more, like maybe
    where these documents are, I -- at first, I didn't get a
    response.  Apparently the request got lost in the mail.  Then I
    got a call back, and they said, well, we don't know where they
    are.  We get stuff.  It's supposed to be classified.  If it
    isn't, it goes back.  I said, well, tell me who I need to talk
    to.  They did.

    I called the gentleman.  It turns out that he's in the
    History Division, and, ironically enough, he's been detailed to
    your counterpart at DOE.  He has yet to get back to me, but I
    imagine he'll want to know where these documents are, too,
    because they relate to your mission and his.  So, hopefully that
    will come up relatively soon.

    We've had more success, frankly, getting information
    from published sources, old Atomic Energy Commission histories,
    which I'm sure your staff has looked at, and the Department of
    Defense histories, but, of course, as you know, anything that is
    really interesting isn't in there, and that's unfortunate, given
    the fact that cost data on all government programs is, according
    to the Constitution, supposed to be published now and then for
    people to know what's going on, it's unfortunate that most of
    this information is still not available.

    We've made requests to the department, discrete
    requests for specific blocks of information that we need.  Things
    that have been classified and are still classified today, but in
    our view should not be.  For example, the cost of nuclear
    warheads.  There's no reason for the American public not to know
    what we spent on these things.

    We don't want to know how they worked.  Frankly, we
    already know that.  We don't want to know how they're put
    together.  We just want to know what they cost, and,
    unfortunately, we're running into a bit of a bureaucratic road
    block there.

    We've done the same thing at the Department of Defense,
    got a bit more success there, but they're still dragging their
    feet a little bit on that request, and we've gone, frankly, we've
    gone to the National Archives, which is where we went first, for
    this information, and surprisingly there isn't a whole lot of it
    there, as I'm sure -- well, actually, your committee's found a
    fair amount of information in the Archives.

    But I think you've got somewhat better access to it
    than we do.  So, you know, I've been following your work.  I've
    been to the committee offices and looked at the documentation.
    The stuff from the Defense Nuclear Agency is terrific, and I
    commend you all for putting it together and look forward to using
    it in the future when the committee finishes its work.

    I just wanted to relate those experiences, to say that
    the kind of problems you're running into, independent scholars
    and historians are running into the same problems.  We dare not
    use the Freedom of Information Act.  When we went to the Defense
    Department, for example, to request access to some information,
    we told them that one part of the request involved a pending
    Freedom of Information Act request, they said, well, how long has
    it been pending, we said two years, can you do anything about
    that, and they said, not really, it will just have to stay in the
    queue, and we said, well, it's been two years, our mandate is to
    get this report out in two years.  So, hopefully in four years,
    you'll get our document to us, but in the meantime, isn't there
    anything you can do, and they said absolutely not, and we
    understand the reason, legally, why they need to do that.

    But it is a serious, serious problem.  So, with that,
    I'll just end, and if you all have any questions for me, I'd be
    happy to answer them.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you, Mr. Schwartz.  Thank you for
    your compliments.  The staff really has done an amazing job
    gathering all the material.

    Do we have questions?  Susan?

    DR. LEDERER:  Are you suggesting the inability of the,
    say, DOE to locate a particular document is evidence of
    stonewalling or --

    MR. SCHWARTZ:  No.

    DR. LEDERER:  -- obstruction or a conspiracy or the
    inefficiency of a large bureaucracy?

    MR. SCHWARTZ:  I don't think -- on our stuff, I can't
    speak to your documentation, but on the stuff that we are
    seeking, I don't think there's any element of conspiracy there.

    A lot of it, frankly, is bureaucratic inertia.  We met
    with some very senior-level people in October, and they said to
    us, quite frankly, and we understand it, although given the
    Secretary's edict that, you know, they're going to try to be more
    helpful to the customer, i.e. the public, I was sort of hoping
    for a little bit more, but they said, look, you know, we've got a
    lot of work to do here, and this is just more work on top of
    that, and they couldn't quite see what they would be getting out
    of this project, and to be fair, our original request was rather
    burdensome, but even after we peeled it down, we're still meeting
    with resistance, and it's really from a fairly small group of
    people that control this information that just don't feel that
    it's worth their time to go and find it for us.

    I'm not trying to accuse anyone.  I just think that's
    the way the system is working.  It's similar at the Defense
    Department, you know.  We've been very clear with them about not
    requesting information that is classified.  We originally asked
    to get access to their FYDP data base, their future years defense
    plan data base, which, since 1962, has collected information by
    program element, which is exactly what we need to track costs by
    year by program, and they said no, because, of course, things
    like the CIA and the National Reconnaissance Office listed in
    there said, well, but you could request it by program element.

    Well, there's thousands of program elements in this
    thing.  I said that's going to take you a lot of time, wouldn't
    this be easier, if you just got rid of those few things that are
    a problem, they said no. So, we ended up submitting a request for
    623 program elements, which is now pending over there.  It may
    come out, it may not.

    Mostly, I think, you know, as I mentioned, the -- some
    of this information just simply does not exist.  When you go back
    before 1960, cost data at the Defense Department gets very
    spotty, and for the Atomic Energy Commission, even up to the
    present and the DOE, there's serious problems in finding it.

    The attitude really seems to be once we've allocated
    the money, we don't really care about finding out what happened
    to it.  In fact, I've talked to officials over there that are
    conducting the first-ever baseline inventory that's ever been
    done of all their facilities, and it's amazing what they're
    discovering.  The amount of slipshod accounting over there.

    So, it's frustrating, but as we're going to tell in our
    report, part of the story is that the documentation just may not
    exist.  So, what does exist, we want, though.  So.

    DR. FADEN:  I'm sure you do.  Good luck with your
    project.  We'll look forward to seeing it.

    MR. SCHWARTZ:  Thank you.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you very much.

    I think we need to take a break.  So, it's 10 of 4.  If
    we come back at 4:00, we have an hour for the other items on our
    agenda.

    (Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

    DR. FADEN:  Committee members, please come to the
    table.

    (Pause)

    DR. FADEN:  Committee members, if we could start, we
    have a few agenda items that I still would like to get in, and
    then we start -- so people can recall, we start at 8:30 tomorrow
    morning.  I just put that in because we seem to start at a
    different time every day.  We start at 8:30 tomorrow morning, and
    then we start at 8:00 on Friday morning.  Okay.

    If we could pick up with the -- kind of where we left
    off on the agenda.  Nancy, is Henry joining you in this?  Do we
    need to wait for Henry to come or can you start?

    DR. OLEINICK:  No.  And then if he wants to add to it,
    he can.

    DR. FADEN:  Okay.  Could somebody close the door?
    Thank you, David.  If there are any committee members -- oh,
    here, good, here comes Henry.  Duncan, any other committee
    members, if we could round them up.

    (Pause)

    DR. FADEN:  Nancy and Henry were kind enough to
    represent us in our last field panel hearing, and Nancy, I
    gather, is going to give us a report of how that experience went,
    and Henry will chime in or --

    DR. OLEINICK:  As he sees fit.

    DR. FADEN:  Okay.  Thank you both, by the way, on
    behalf of all of us for finding the time to go.  We appreciate
    it.

            Update on Knoxville Small Panel Meeting

    DR. OLEINICK:  All right.  I'm going to report on the
    Knoxville meeting that was held two weeks ago.

    This, as we had heard from other small panel meetings,
    was very interesting and informative to those of us on the
    committee.  That particular panel was small.  We -- the committee
    was represented by Henry and myself.  Steve Klaidman joined us on
    the panel, just so that we would be three.  We missed Reed and
    Susan, who were initially supposed to go but couldn't attend, but
    we hope we represented the committee well.

    The significant details of the meeting can be found in
    the report that was prepared by staff, and I certainly don't want
    to repeat that.  I'd like to just give you a few of my
    impressions, and Henry can add to this as he sees fit.

    I would like to say before going further that we were
    very fortunate to have a core staff who performed in their usual
    highly-efficient manner, and all the arrangements went according
    to clockwork almost.  If there was chaos, it was all behind the
    scenes, and we weren't aware of it, and even last-minute program
    changes were accommodated without interrupting the flow of the
    meeting, and I think staff really deserves a round of applause
    from us for this effort.

    (Applause)

    DR. OLEINICK:  Literally.  We were able to hear from a
    diverse array of citizens, as in most of these panels, and that
    included current and former scientists and medical professionals
    who were associated with the Oak Ridge facilities to persons
    certainly or probably involved in the radiation experiments of
    concern to the committee.

    These included Emma Craft and others who were subjects
    of the Vanderbilt experiments and patients treated for acute
    leukemia with experimental total body radiation at Oak Ridge.

    Also, among the patients, it was interesting, were
    those who expressed how grateful they were that the Oak Ridge
    facilities were available to them for treatment of themselves or
    family members.

    The audience was somewhat polarized, and we heard
    applause for both the scientists on the one hand and the patients
    on the other hand, and -- but I think there were expressions of
    sincerity and courage on both sides for telling us each of their
    parts of the stories.

    Also presenting were a number of individuals who felt
    they had been over-exposed to radiation or chemicals or both as a
    result of working in DOE facilities and others who were concerned
    about environmental contamination by these facilities, and while
    occupational exposures per se, experiments with non-radioactive
    chemicals and pollution in general are certainly outside the
    committee's charter, the panel recognized a genuine concern by
    workers and citizens in the Oak Ridge area, and I think we need
    to at least report and acknowledge these fears and perhaps
    consider a recommendation for the government to look further into
    these issues, even though they go beyond our charter.

    In order to accommodate the large number of presenters,
    we had originally imposed a seven-minute rule and were going to
    be ruthless about it, but, you know, as we know in these things,
    we can't always be so ruthless, and the first time that we had to
    let that rule go was for Karl Morgan, and who, as you remember,
    is one of the early health physicists in Oak Ridge, and he
    prepared a review of his efforts to define radiation exposure
    limits and discussed some of the human radiation experiments
    conducted at the Oak Ridge facilities, and, so, we were very
    interested to hear his report, and let him go well beyond the
    seven-minute rule, and additional others as well.

    We also heard from two gentlemen, Dr. Bill Bibb and Dr.
    Bill Burr.  Both retired from Oak Ridge Defense Programs, and
    they spoke about the role of the medical branch in reviewing
    research proposals, and the medical research that Dr. Bibb was
    aware of, he says, was certainly not classified, and there was an
    appropriate level of accountability, and I think what was most
    interesting here is that these two gentlemen certainly have very
    firsthand view of how research, human research was conducted at
    this institution, and we certainly suggested they may have an
    important view, and if time permits, that they should be
    interviewed to add to the data base for the committee.

    We two others who might also be contacted were Dr.
    Frank Comas and Ann Sipe, who were also involved in those
    experiments.  They spoke about the caring attitude of the
    hospital staff and the community, and that theme was echoed by
    Dick Smyser, who was the founding editor of the newspaper, the
    Oak Ridger.

    Several individuals repeated a theme we heard in prior
    public testimony, and that is the difficulty of finding records
    of whether or not they or family members were participants in
    research.

    One example was Richard Vaughn, who was born at
    Vanderbilt in 1946, and he has a letter to his mother from Dr.
    Heckstrom asking his mother to participate in the follow-up
    study, and yet he doesn't know if his mother was exposed to
    radioactive ion or not, and that, I think, statements like that
    reinforce the need for the recommendation concerning, where
    possible, the increased accessibility of records, where they
    still exist, to the public.

    Finally, a Ph.D. student in sociology at Vanderbilt
    asked us how we were going to weight all of the anecdotal
    reports, such as those obtained in public testimony, some of
    which we've heard today, with all the technical information, and
    although we couldn't give her a complete answer on that subject,
    off the top of our heads, we all agreed that this represents one
    of the major challenges to the committee's work.

    These were a few of my impressions of the meeting.
    It's clear that these panels have been very important to us in
    hearing from the public and helping us in our data gathering, and
    I thought perhaps Henry or Steve may wish to add to my report.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you very much, Nancy.  I'm just
    thumbing through something to see if we got it in here.  And,
    again, thank you for going, and the session went all day?

    DR. OLEINICK:  The session went all day, yes.

    DR. FADEN:  Henry, do you want to add something?

    DR. ROYAL:  I'll just make three brief comments.  The
    first is there are a -- there is a list of people that Shirley
    Fry from Oak Ridge sent me, who she believed might have
    information that would be of interest to the committee, and I
    recently got that list, and we'll be forwarding it to the
    committee for follow-up as appropriate.

    The second thing is that Nancy really did a wonderful
    job chairing the meeting.  I had been to the Spokane meeting and
    had seen Reed in the job that Reed did, and Nancy is every bit of
    his equal.

    And the third thing is I wish that Steve Klaidman would
    figure out how to get to the airport.

    DR. FADEN:  It's a shame he missed it, but we'll relay
    it.  I gather it has special significance for Steve.  Okay.  We
    have material in the briefing book obviously that is a more
    detailed report, and the testimony and transcript of the field
    hearing will be available.  I don't know when.  Shortly.  Usually
    -- so, we should have it or we do have it, and I have them, if
    anybody wants to look at them, in addition to looking at what's
    in the briefing book.  You should just ask staff.

    Okay.  That's -- thank you very much, and that is our
    final field hearing, and it is clear that if we had resources, it
    would be useful to do more, but we are pleased that we could do
    the four.  Did we do four?  Five?  Well, four.  San Francisco
    wasn't a field hearing.  San Francisco was a formal meeting.  So,
    we had five meetings outside of the Washington area.  It would
    have been good to have had more, but five is better than none.  A
    lot.  A lot in 13 months.  That's true.  We should give
    ourselves, and especially the committee members and staff that
    did the traveling, the acknowledgement that they deserve.

    What we're going to do now for the rest of the
    afternoon, which is basically until 5:00, and we will end at
    5:00, so that our plans are not totally messed up, and we can
    function tomorrow morning, is focus a little bit on where we are
    with respect to the pulling together of the report and try to get
    some suggestions and responses to a strategy for how we might
    proceed to get systematic involvement of the committee members in
    the process of getting these chapters out, you know, drafted,
    improved, revised, and yet again.

    Let me just, before we go into that discussion again,
    Dan is going to lead us in that, if he will, let me just point
    out that there have been pieces of paper left at your table, at
    your seat.  There always are.  It's like Eli or somebody else
    said, it's dangerous to leave your seat because when you come
    back, there's stuff on it, that you're supposed to read that
    night.  Well, this is another one.  There is a document marked
    "Final Chapter".  Please ignore -- there's -- only on mine?
    Okay.

    This happens frequently.  No, no.  I got it, but I got
    one that was inappropriately copied.  It seems that happens.
    It's a document that's final chapter, and it's -- this -- we will
    be discussing material that's covered in the document tomorrow
    and Friday.

    The first -- it's almost split.  The first 20 pages or
    so relates to the discussion for tomorrow, and from 21 forward,
    the discussion for Friday.  This is homework, unfortunately, to
    read tonight, and I know this is very bad, and you should have
    had it two weeks ago, but it was being pulled together yesterday.
    I don't know what you received yesterday.  I'd have to check.  I
    don't know.  I don't know what you received.

    Anyway, this is -- okay.  And when I say that it -- I
    sort of chopped it in half, we're going to do half tomorrow and
    half on Friday.  Obviously, if one discussion goes more quickly,
    we'll move into the Friday discussion tomorrow.  Conversely, if
    the Thursday discussion takes more time, it will go into Friday.

    So, I guess the request is please read the whole thing
    tonight, but focus disproportionately on the material in the
    front half tonight, because you will have an opportunity to
    revisit the material in the second half on -- what is today?
    Wednesday.  Thursday night.

    So, in addition, -- so, that's this one, and this is
    critical because this is almost all we're going to be doing for
    the next two days.  It comes out of what's written here.

    In addition, however, you have a report from the
    research proposal review project.  There's the beginning of an
    appendix for that chapter, and also a report on where things are
    going, and we're going to have a report on that tomorrow morning.
    Friday morning.  So, that can go in your pile to look at.  It
    looks like this.  This should have been -- I know.  One says
    "update" on the research proposal review project, and the other
    one says "Part 2, Chapter 10, Appendix".

    We should, as a point of whatever from now on, I don't
    think we should leave things on people's chairs.  I think it's
    better to wait until we reassemble, and then I will describe what
    it is, and we will circulate it, rather than going through this
    exercise of saying it looks like this or it looks like that or
    you find it here, you find it there.

    For the last two -- one and a half more meetings that
    we're going to have or however many we are, but let's not leave
    things on people's -- all right.  So, if we're clear for the
    homework assignment, if you could focus on the final chapter
    tonight, that would be very useful.

    Okay.  Dan and Anna, you want to talk us through, where
    we are and what you need us to do?

                 Approach to the Final Report

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Let me just give a perspective.  I gather
    that there are some of you that are eager to jump in and start
    working on this, and we're really more than thrilled.  We're in a
    situation like one of these computers where there's an infinite
    amount of data to calculate.  If we had enough time, and Jay may
    have made this point some time ago, there wouldn't be a
    difficulty, but we don't have that much time.

    What we tried to do, and this is why there was the sort
    of bottleneck in the last month, is get what we had in the first
    go-around to these chapters was kind of descriptive.  Anybody who
    wanted to know about every, you know, document and piece of
    paper, but that's not something that anybody would want to read
    for comprehension.

    So, what we've been trying to do is get the chapters,
    and I'll use the word "grocking", getting through the conceptual
    problems.  They're not alliterative.  The color is missing.  You
    know, the sentences are fractured, but at least it kind of reads
    through, and you can say I disagree with this or don't disagree
    with this.

    The staff is acutely aware that the conclusions are the
    committee's.  So, a lot of the cases, if we can figure out where,
    you know, you had clearly gone and put them in, but otherwise
    not.

    In any event, having said that, we're now at the point
    where in the next five days, we will have fairly blocked through
    drafts of two-thirds of the chapters, roughly, which will give
    you -- and then the question is how to go get that, and we have
    about three or four chapters which were practically prepared at
    the same -- the chapters that we have to work on are the radio-
    isotope chapter, which Gil is working --

    DR. FADEN:  Yeah.  Maybe it would be helpful for people
    to look at this first.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Right.  We just go through -- we can just
    go --

    DR. FADEN:  There's a draft, another piece of paper
    that looks like this.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Yeah.

    DR. FADEN:  I feel like I'm running a kindergarten.  If
    you go to your pink folder.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Yeah.  Right.

    DR. FADEN:  Your pink folder, in the red folder, in the
    yellow folder, you'll find.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Yeah.  We're going to -- we've dubbed
    whatever the conclusions are Chairman Ruth's take-home lessons.

    DR. FADEN:  Thank you.  So, maybe if you work with
    this, then --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Right.  Okay.

    DR. FADEN:  -- this is the operative structure at the
    moment.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Yeah.

    DR. FADEN:  It has a 100,000 chapters in it.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Yeah.  The introduction, you have a draft
    of the introduction, and the atomic century, you have a draft of
    that.

    The accomplishments, that's a chapter, we don't know
    where to put it, which will recite some of the testimony we've
    heard, and there's been some discussion, which is obviously your
    choice, as to whether it should be -- clearly, we want to
    integrate the testimony, the chapters, but do you also want a
    stand-alone chapter?  I don't know, but this is what it might
    look like.

    DR. FADEN:  Chapter 2-A is in your --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Right.

    DR. FADEN:  -- blue folder.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Okay.  Right.

    DR. FADEN:  By the way, if you look right here, it says
    -- there's this other table.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Right.  Yeah.

    DR. FADEN:  If you look at this, too, it says when
    we're supposed to get them, if we haven't already got them.  So,
    go ahead, Dan.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Okay.  Let me work you through the next
    four chapters, 3 through 6, are actually all ethics chapters, and
    this is sort of an evolving set.  Chapter 3 is the one that we've
    had for some time, which is the veil of secrecy lifted.  We found
    all these documents about the Cold War.

    After you go through Chapter 3, the citizen might ask,
    well, gee, what about the Nuremberg Code, what about professional
    practices, and that's the chapter that John Harkness has been
    working on, where we told about the history, we talk about the
    trial at Nuremberg, we talk about what people knew.

    Then, as Ruth and I were talking about it again at
    Starbucks, someone said, probably Ruth, gee, what happened after
    1955, and that's sort of what all the scholars, Dr. Katz and
    others, have written about in many of their textbooks, the period
    from 1960 to the '74 period, where you have, you know, Henry
    Beecher and Willowbrook and discovery a little later of M.K.
    Alter, and, so, it's a bridge chapter between the part of the
    world we were really uncovering here for the first time, and
    what, you know, is called the post-Cold War world, 1974 and
    thereafter.  So, that's that bridge chapter.

    4 and 5 are being -- they're roughed out.  They'll be
    available within a week or so, we hope.  Jeff can tell us more
    shortly, but that's under control.  4 is going to require a lot
    of work because that's where the scholars, by which I mean Dr.
    Katz, are going to have to really think about what is being said
    about the Nuremberg trial, the Nuremberg Code and how it fits in.
    So, that's going to be a chapter that is going to be exciting.
    It's going to be interesting, but it's going -- nuanced, nuanced.
    Nuanced, and there's only a footnote allowed for dissenting
    opinions.

    So, Chapter 6 is what we've discussed before.  That's
    the summary.  It's the committee finds in light of all this that
    the standards should be such and such for judging experiments.

    So, by and large, you have Part 1, except for the 4 and
    5.  4, you have, you know, gotten, you know, something to sink
    your teeth in, and 5 will be here shortly.

    Part 2, of course, is the case studies.  The problem
    here, as Pat King mentioned last time, is what's the point of
    each of these cases, and that's sort of -- before we send it out,
    we want to get some sense.

    Overview of case studies will be about, you know, two
    or three pages, where we will say this is why we have these all
    here.  You may wonder how come we didn't just do like plutonium
    experiments, uranium experiments, and so forth.  Well, because we
    thought about the billions of ways to organize it, and this is
    the way we're doing it, and that will be two or three pages.

    The bio-distribution, that's the plutonium experiment
    at the core, and is it -- we've given it --

    DR. FADEN:  No.  They will get it.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Okay.  That's the -- ready, and that's
    here.

    DR. FADEN:  Friday.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  It's in a draft form.  So, you'll have
    that.

    Total body irradiation.  We've been revising for
    literary quality, hope to give you by next Monday or Tuesday, but
    it's along the lines that we discussed, except it turned into
    something, you know, instead of, you know, -- review committee 1
    said, review committee 2 said, you know, something that somebody
    could read.

    Children and pregnant women.  What we are trying to do
    there is trying to take the children and the pregnant women
    chapters, which are now two separate descriptive set pieces, and
    put them together in one story.  So, otherwise, you're not going
    to have anything you can work with, and the working notion there,
    and this is something we're going to do very quickly, is that
    what it's about is low-level -- the ethics issue percolated very
    quickly in the '40s was work.  It wasn't so much consent, as,
    this is very risky because these are kids, and, so, that's part
    of the story of how you put it out in a way where you're not just
    Case 1, Case 2, Case 3.  That is about a week or two away.

    Prisoner research, you've seen.  That's in pretty good
    shape.  That will be circulating in a day -- when is that?

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  Friday.  The dates are in there as to
    when we either have it or we lost it we got it in.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Yeah.  The human -- the experimentation
    in connection with bomb tests.  We will have it to you either by
    Friday or Monday.  The difficulty there, as we all know, having
    discussed it, is how you talk about a situation where in some
    sense, everything was an experiment, in some sense, there were
    these technical experiments and people were similarly exposed in
    both cases, and, so, there really -- the presentational
    difficulties are met.  Then you get to the end of it, you say
    what was the risk, and then at the end of this discussion that we
    have been, you know, about what one says about low levels
    relatively speaking of radiation.

    So, there are many levels of difficulty, and what we
    have that will give to you, hopefully just sort of lays it out
    and that you can, you know, reorganize it or do whatever you want
    with it, but it's sort in a form where you can work with it.

    Isotopes.  Gil is going to give us something when he
    gets in from Cambridge, and it will be eloquent.  It will be
    scholarly, and I'll say it's not spicy enough, and he'll say
    that's just my view.

    Research experiments of opportunity, which has been
    renamed, although we don't have an attractive new name, we have,
    and I guess we will work with -- immediately with those we're
    going to work with.  Duncan, I know, wants to work with it and
    possibly Nancy.  We'll just start working with it, and short-term
    releases is ready, will be ready by Monday.  Mark has re-worked
    it, you know, and it's not -- it's much more than, you know, a
    series.  It's now actually, I think, a pretty good readable.  The
    stories are quite elegant, and the conclusions are useful, and
    that will be out by Monday, I hope.  Mark, Monday?  Yeah.  Okay.
    There he is.

    Contemporary projects, we'll talk about in a second.
    Secrecy is this chapter that's been there for about two months,
    and we haven't had any comment, and it's there, and let's leave
    that where it is, and see if we can work with it, and, so, that's
    it.

    You've also just gotten this last piece.

    DR. FADEN:  Yeah.  Which we're going to talk about
    tomorrow --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Yeah.

    DR. FADEN:  -- and Friday.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Yeah.  Anna?

    DR. FADEN:  Do you want to explain this form?

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  Yeah.  Why don't I explain this form
    and what we're doing?  I think it's self-explanatory, but I'll
    just run through it.  You have a three-page form, and we're
    asking each committee member to review at least one chapter every
    week, and we have a nice little checklist.  We want to make sure
    that every chapter is reviewed, and we know when to expect your
    comments.  So, there are specific staggered deadlines.

    DR. FADEN:  Let me just introduce.  We would like
    everybody to read every chapter.

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  Absolutely.

    DR. FADEN:  But at minimum, we want people to come up
    to the plate and say I will take responsibility for the following
    chapters after careful consideration.  So, we expect everybody to
    read every line of everything.

    Having said that, we want people to really take
    responsibility for sharp readings of identified chapters.

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  Okay.  If you go to Page 2, for
    example, we will have most of these documents to you by Friday,
    so that you can take them home and read them over the week.  The
    comments are due by Monday, March 27th.

    What we are recommending that you do is either E-mail
    or telephone or fax in your comments to the person who's
    designated in that column as the staff coordinator, and we will
    take your comments, we'll pull in whatever staff members get.  We
    need to pull in to go over the comments with you and incorporate
    them and follow up with you as well.

    So, I think that the actual chart is self-explanatory.
    You have to check at least one.  That's your permit to read at
    least one, and as you'll see on the first page, that all
    committees members are expected to read one and two, and on Page
    3, all committee members are expected to comment on the final
    chapter as well.

    So, if we could get these forms back from you tomorrow,
    we'll collate them and make sure that every chapter is covered,
    and I'll be talking to you, if I find nobody's interested in
    reading particular chapters.

    What we'd also like to encourage is that you read a
    chapter that you may have technical expertise in, but then also
    select one that you know that you may not have the specific
    expertise to read.  So, we want to make sure that these documents
    are understandable to people who are not working within that
    area.

    DR. ROYAL:  I'd like to make the job a little bit more
    complicated.

    DR. FADEN:  Great, Henry.

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  Thank you, Henry.

    DR. ROYAL:  When the committee members give their
    comments to the committee staff, the other committee members
    don't necessarily see the comments.  I would suggest that the
    comments get collated by line number, and -- what was that, Dan?
    And that they get sent out to the, I would say, all of the
    committee members.

    I think that does two things.  Actually, the comments
    should -- should not only be collated but what happened to that
    comment should be indicated.  The possibilities.  It was
    implemented, it was partially implemented or it was not
    implemented.  Just so that we can see what comments were made,
    and we can see what resulted as a basis for that comment.

    The reason that I think it's a good idea is because it
    becomes immediately apparent what parts of the chapter are
    controversial and which parts of the chapter everyone pretty much
    agrees with, and it documents the process, and I know I
    personally would find it very helpful, and I could immediately
    find the contentious parts of various chapters just by looking at
    the comment and seeing that there was a big diversity of opinion
    about that particular section.

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  Okay.  What I would -- what I'm going
    to anticipate doing is doing a red-lining of the comments, and
    then indicating -- what we will do is we will incorporate the
    comments.  We'll send out a red-line of the document itself, and
    then on the document that we receive from the committee that
    identifies by line number, we will indicate where that change is.

    I think you're going to have to look at two documents.
    Do you want to -- you want an explicit --

    DR. ROYAL:  What I was thinking of -- I hate looking at
    a document that has all kinds of marks on it, underlines.

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  Yeah.  I don't want to red-line.

    DR. ROYAL:  I don't particularly want a red-line.

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  No.

    DR. ROYAL:  What I would like is I would like to see
    what -- the comments that people made linked to particular line
    numbers in the document that they read, and just whether or not
    that suggested change or that comment was implemented or ignored
    or partially implemented, so I can get some feel.

    I mean if I want to go back and specifically find out
    what you meant when you said it was partially implemented, I can
    ask you that, if I can't figure it out myself, but I'd like to
    know what happens to the comments.

    DR. FADEN:  If I understand this right, we're all going
    to get -- we have some of these.  We're all going to have the
    chapters with the dates on them that are indicated here, the
    March 17th version.  So, let's say Henry and Lois got Chapter 3,
    okay, but -- and I agree, they're the primary reviewers this
    round for Chapter 3.

    So, you send back your comments, maybe your overall
    comments that are for the whole tone, and then your specific
    comments indicating Page 8, Line 22 to 26, kind of thing.  Then
    hopefully there is a revision of the chapter that incorporates a
    response to Lois and Henry's criticisms or comments and
    suggestions, plus other reasons that the chapter is revised,
    style, new information, tone, whatever, and then we all as a
    committee member, committee members now get the April 2nd version
    or whatever it turns out to be, and we would have the original
    document, which we can throw out every time we want to throw it
    out.  If we feel we want to have it, we can use it as a reference
    to just say for Lois and Henry's comments.  Is that what you're
    envisioning, Henry?  And then at some point, -- no?

    DR. ROYAL:  I'm envisioning that when you send me the
    new version, --

    DR. FADEN:  Right.

    DR. ROYAL:  -- that you will also send me the comments
    that were made on the old version.

    DR. FADEN:  Right.

    DR. ROYAL:  So, that's a separate document.

    DR. FADEN:  Okay.

    DR. ROYAL:  And that I will be able to see from looking
    at that list of comments, first of all, I'll be able to see what
    the comments were.  Secondly, I'll be able to see whether or not
    the committee staff made a change to the document based on that
    comment, just by simply saying that this comment was accepted and
    incorporated as is or this was partially implemented or this was
    ignored or not implemented.

    DR. FADEN:  All right.

    DR. KATZ:  Henry, might you accept an amendment to what
    you said?

    DR. ROYAL:  I would accept an amendment.

    DR. FADEN:  We have two questions.

    DR. KATZ:  By the way, we really should all get two
    copies of these chapters because we might want to send the other
    one back to you.

    DR. FADEN:  Oh, marked up?

    DR. KATZ:  Marked up.  So that we have --

    DR. FADEN:  Don't you want to keep a copy of your
    marked-up one?  Some people want to.

    DR. KATZ:  Yeah.  Keeping it.  Okay.  Well, anyway, you
    know, what concerns me about your suggestion is that we will be
    inundated with lots and lots of additional paper there from all
    14 of us.

    Would it be sufficient if the staff circulates to us,
    in the light of our comments, those pages or those comments where
    we challenge the way it's written where we need criticisms, and
    that they use their judgment to -- and lean on the side of over-
    inclusion rather than under-inclusion, because many of the
    comments we might make are just sort of editorial, etc., etc.,
    and that might very well be omitted?

    DR. ROYAL:  Yeah.  I would be happy if they omitted
    editorial comments.

    DR. KATZ:  And letters like that.

    DR. ROYAL:  And really just focused on the subject of
    the comments.

    DR. KATZ:  Something that's controversial.

    DR. FADEN:  So, you are saying it's okay if it's like,
    you know, a comma or the sentence style.  We don't want to see
    that.  So, it's just substance.  If it goes to substance, fine,
    but if it's stylistic, you don't care to see it.  That's fine.

    DR. KATZ:  I only have one suggestion to make, and you
    probably have thought about it.  The chapter outline.  I do not
    know why secrecy has a part of the quality, but that's not
    important at the moment.

    I wonder whether beginning with the Chapter 9-A, 9-B,
    and 9-C should be a separate part.

    DR. FADEN:  Yeah, I think so, too.

    DR. KATZ:  That deals with the present, and I'm also
    wondering, and again I don't have a judgment about what you might
    want to do, that maybe Chapter 9-A, B and C should be introduced
    by Chapter 5, Part 1. That's a possibility.  It may not work, but
    it is --

    DR. FADEN:  It's worth thinking about.

    DR. KATZ:  But it's something you might want to think
    about, yeah.

    DR. FADEN:  Yeah.  It's worth thinking about for sure
    because it's an interesting suggestion.

    DR. KATZ:  Of course, -- yeah.

    DR. FADEN:  Chapter -- the Chapter 5 emerged when there
    was a realization that somehow we needed to explain something to
    the reader about why it was that the Administration highlighted
    1974.  What was it about 1974 that caused them to think that
    there was a demarcated period?  Certainly it wasn't the end of
    the Cold War.  That continued past 1974.

    So, there was -- and, so, that -- also, we realized
    there was no explanation of why it was that somebody thought that
    1974 was of significance, and it turns out that that's leading up
    to the federal regulatory structure as we know it today.

    So, I think your point is well taken that it cramps --
    but it also has very important implications for the Defense
    Department because the IG's report in relation to MK Ultra that
    resulted in changes in the way research was reviewed by the CIA
    and the Defense Department also occurs in that same period.

    So, for the two parts of our story about traditional
    bio-medical experiment part and also as well the national
    security related human experimentation, there are watershed
    events in the late '60s and '70s, Tuskegee on the one hand and MK
    ULTRA on the other, and we can sort of balance that out, that
    lead to changes in the regulatory structure about the time, and
    that's a bridge that might fit nicely to move it down.

    Duncan?  I'm sorry.

    DR. THOMAS:  Did the institutional case studies get
    dropped?

    DR. FADEN:  They're not here.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Yeah.  We had -- we actually were
    thinking about putting them in the companion volumes, some of our
    companion volumes, and the reasoning was focus and time and
    effort, and we have, as you know, the California case studies, --

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  Yeah, right, and the Oak Ridge.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  -- and we've taken what we're doing, as
    you'll see in the bio-distribution, an essential part of the
    California case study goes into that chapter.

    It's up to you.  If you want to put it -- you know, you
    know, whatever you people want to do, it's just that we got 18
    chapters, and, you know, --

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  Well, there was a reason for deciding
    to do the two additional case studies.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Right.

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  It seems that that reason, I guess,
    is still valid.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  The reason it's valid --

    DR. THOMAS:  The reason was valid, but its
    implementation in the draft chapter that we saw didn't cut it.

    DR. FADEN:  Right.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  It's just a difficulty of how much you
    want to work with.  As I said, we have time, we can do it.

    DR. FADEN:  It may be something that can be relegated
    to staff.  Okay.  Ruth?

    DR. MACKLIN:  One trivial point and one ignorant
    question.  The trivial point is the due dates for the comments
    are Mondays, and if -- since most of us probably have a bigger
    block of time to work on it on the weekend, it -- and then FedEx
    it on Monday, if you want it on Monday, it means --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Tuesday, Tuesday.

    DR. MACKLIN:  Tuesday.  All right.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Tuesday.

    DR. MACKLIN:  That's what --

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  Faxing Monday, FedExing Tuesday.  How
    about that?

    DR. MACKLIN:  Pardon?  What?

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  If you're faxing Monday, if you're
    FedExing Tuesday.

    DR. FADEN:  If you're faxing or E-mailing Monday, if
    you're FedExing, it will come on Tuesday.

    DR. MACKLIN:  So, actually, we can E-Mail, right?  We
    can --

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  Sure.  That would be better.

    DR. MACKLIN:  Is that what you would prefer?

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  I would prefer -- I would prefer E-
    mail, unless you're writing directly -- unless you're faxing it
    or sending in comments.

    DR. MACKLIN:  That's if you want an E-mail version.
    Now, clearly, the most efficient way, if we get an E-mail
    version, those of us who do it on the E-mail, is to inter-lineate
    and comment --

    MS. MASTROIANNI:  On the text itself.

    DR. MACKLIN:  -- on the text itself.  Less work.  If
    that's all right.

    DR. FADEN:  It's a little more work to respond to
    Henry, but it -- I don't know.  I think we should -- frankly, we
    should just -- whatever makes it easier for you, that you'll do
    the most work and be happiest, you should do it.

    DR. MACKLIN:  Well, I mean anybody who does it on E-
    mail can then E-mail what they do to Henry.

    DR. FADEN:  What you should do is -- if you're doing it
    on the electronic file, maybe you should have your comments
    bolded or whatever, so that it's then possible to pull them out,
    as a simple matter, pull them out and make them a separate
    document, your comments.

    DR. MACKLIN:  Bold.  All right.

    DR. ROYAL:  The one thing about E-mail that I would
    suggest is if it's -- you have to get the text so that it has --
    the E-mail text, so that it has the line numbers and it has
    carriage returns at the end of the lines, because otherwise the
    line numbers get all --

    DR. FADEN:  You're right.  It's not going to work.
    Okay.

    DR. ROYAL:  I think you come up with a file to a plain
    old text file that then you can E-mail that has the line numbers
    in it, but --

    MR. FEINBERG:  Unless you're sending it to Henry, then
    you should mix something up.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Well, send out lots of orders of pizza to
    Henry, right.

    DR. FADEN:  Let me -- let me point out on this, there's
    a little bit of a confusion.  There are three charts.  Okay.  The
    intent is not that you're supposed to pick one in each chart
    because if you'll notice, the middle chart has a short number of
    chapters.  The idea is that we would like everybody to take
    primary responsibility for really three chapters between now and
    the next meeting.

    You can pick them all from one week.  We'd like you to
    spread it out.  But you can pick them all from one week or one
    from each of the three weeks or one from one week and two from
    the other week.  We would encourage you to please pick chapters
    that you, you know, have a kinship to, and chapters that you find
    alien to your interests, so that to underscore what Anna was
    saying, so that we're not only reading stuff that we have a
    particular affinity for, expertise for, because our readership
    will not be made up solely of people who have expertise in the
    areas.  So, it's very helpful if, you know, you know a lot about
    how IRBs run as in Lois's case, I can see why you'd want to take
    one chapter, but take a plunge and do another kind of chapter.

    That kind of thing would be helpful, so that we can
    balance that out, but once they're blocked out, they're blocked
    out in part because they're the subjects of this meeting.  We're
    going to be talking about one and two.  We were going to do it
    today, but we'll talk about it tomorrow because we're running out
    of time, and, of course, the other one is the discussion for the
    rest of the meeting.

    So, if the expectation is we've all read those
    chapters, and we'll have comments and reactions to them, we'll
    get some of that out in the meeting, and then additional written
    comments, of course, would be very useful, but they'll be stuff
    for staff to do in terms of revisions, based solely on the
    discussion of the group communally.

    So, there's a sense that staff can make progress on
    those three chapters based on the discussions that we're going to
    have collectively over the next two days.  The other chapters,
    the staff needs input from us in between meetings, and then we'll
    put things on the agenda again for the April meetings.  So,
    that's the notion behind this being set up this way.

    DR. MACKLIN:  I had my question of ignorance.

    DR. FADEN:  I'm sorry.

    DR. MACKLIN:  I just need a reminder.  The -- which of
    the technical material falls under the bio-distribution chapter,
    and which under the isotope chapter?  I know the plutonium is
    under the --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Yeah.  The bio-distribution chapter, as
    the concept evolved, but as it's evolved now, we start off
    talking about transuranic experiments, then we said workers, and
    what it really turns out in part because you look at the UCSF
    report, is the plutonium, which we know about, then at the UCSF,
    that merges.  The people doing the plutonium, then after the War
    ends, get into doing zirconium and columbium, and, so, that's
    not, you know, not necessary transuranic, and then it turns out
    in Boston in '53-54, there is what we had thought was the last of
    the uranium experiments, except that Miriam found yesterday that
    there were uranium experiments as late as 1969.

    So, basically, it's the transuranics, but part of the
    story is that in California, there was maybe a multiple purpose
    involved.  They were doing, you know, different, you know,
    different purposes, and then the last gasp, sort of what happens
    when they do these uranium experiments after 10 or 15 years after
    the AEC says you got to be ethical about these things.

    So, that's it.  The radio-isotopes by contrast is more
    an institutional, it's what we've been referring to as the great
    unwashed, that there are thousands of other experiments going on
    at institutions throughout the country, which have all these
    human use committees, and how do those kind of work out, and it's
    an institutional series, and the story there is generally that
    risk was taken into consideration, but that there doesn't look
    like there was an implementation of the consent part of the, you
    know, AEC standards.

    So, the bio-distributions specific to  particular
    experiments and the isotopes is sort of an institutional story
    about the way in which that process worked throughout the
    country.

    Is that an answer?  Is that the question?

    DR. MACKLIN:  It is an answer, and I'm just -- what
    only puzzles me a little bit is the logic of it.  I mean it
    answers my question.  I'm just -- I'm not challenging it.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Right.  Okay.

    DR. MACKLIN:  I'm trying to think -- if I looked
    puzzled, I'm just trying to think it through.

    DR. FADEN:  What you are pointing out, though, is the
    problem of this method.  Soon, at some point, we got to be
    reading this from beginning to end, I mean because one of the
    biggest sets of issues has to do with whether it makes sense the
    way it's set up, and when we're dividing it up and somebody's
    getting three chapters and somebody else is doing another three
    chapters, we do have a problem with Gestalt and whether it's
    hanging together and how it works as a piece.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  That's right.

    DR. FADEN:  So, while we want people to, you know, as I
    said, sort of step up to the plate and take first reviewer
    responsibility as a primary reviewer responsibility for
    identified chapters, we do need people to start thinking about
    this as a whole, and I don't exactly know what that -- I mean it
    means we have to read thousands of pages, and whether that should
    be done on this iteration or the next iteration is a very
    problematic question.

    DR. MACKLIN:  Well, I mean I guess conceptually, I mean
    my comment is really about it conceptually, certainly the way
    it's set up -- I mean we have the concept of case studies, and
    these are all case studies, but they're different kinds of case
    studies.  They're case studies of different sorts of things, and
    one of the difficulties is that they require saying the same
    kinds of things about these different case studies.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Let me step back and respond.  It
    occurred to me this is what, Nancy, you asked.

    The isotope chapter in essence becomes the
    institutional chapter.  In other words, that's the chapter about
    there were thousands of these experiments at institutions
    throughout the country, how did this institutional process work,
    and we're going to draw on all that we know about the various
    institutions, California, Oak Ridge, Los Alamos, School of
    Aviation Medicine, you name it.

    So, that's the institutional chapter.  In other words,
    sort of you don't see your particular experiment, you want to
    know generally what happened, how did this process work
    throughout the country.  Well, the AEC had this set of rules, and
    then they had these local things at the institutions, and how did
    the two connect, you know, and there will be some examples.

    But it's that sort of institutional. Everything we have
    about, you know, --

    DR. OLEINICK:  I thought that the -- just that the
    distinction between what we were calling bio-distribution and
    isotopes was basically that isotopes was the use of isotopes to
    study normal metabolism, whereas bio-distribution was looking at
    the distribution of radioactive materials that we wouldn't have
    been thinking about if there weren't --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Correct.  But let me -- the problem is,
    as you get into this material, --

    DR. OLEINICK:  Is that the distinction?

    MR. GUTTMAN:  No, no.  That was --

    DR. OLEINICK:  Different ethical questions that arise
    with each of these, but I thought that was the --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Nancy, that's right.

    DR. OLEINICK:  -- reason that we started that way.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  That's right.  But then you follow -- you
    follow the uranium, you follow your transuranic experiments until
    1954, and then Dr. Sweet says he's doing something that -- as you
    follow the trail of the story, --

    DR. OLEINICK:  All right.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  -- the distinction changes.  We've
    discussed this practically -- it's like this game of everybody
    comes in here saying, well, what's this distinction, and the more
    we talk about it, there is no -- it's not like -- there's no --
    no linear set of categories.

    DR. OLEINICK:  Okay.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  There is no linear set of categories by
    which this whole thing can be divided.  It's more different cuts
    on different groups of things, but you're obviously right in the
    way we thought about it originally, you know.

    DR. OLEINICK:  It's fuzzy.  Yeah.  Okay.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  And the problem with the chapter is to
    unfuzz it, to have a clear enough focus.

    DR. OLEINICK:  I'm going to have to look at them and
    then see how it divides up.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Right.  That's right.

    DR. FADEN:  That's where the problem comes.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Right, right.

    DR. FADEN:  Because you may like the chapter that
    you're looking at, and you may not, but then you may not think it
    belongs --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Right.

    DR. FADEN:  -- set up this way relative to the other
    chapters or whatever.  So, at some point, depending on how, you
    know, how much time you have, you've got to take a plunge at some
    point and try to work your way through.  Eli looks thrilled.

    DR. GLATSTEIN:  Whatever it takes.

    DR. FADEN:  Whatever it takes.  Duncan?

    DR. THOMAS:  I asked this the last time, and I can't
    remember the answer.  Where does the common garden variety
    clinical trial of radio-therapy fit?  Is that part of what we're
    calling total body irradiation but probably should be --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  That's -- that's -- you've asked it the
    last time.  We -- it's a troublesome question because there's no
    one place that that goes.  That's right.  Total body irradiation
    would be the natural location, but we know that's taken up with
    total body -- that's one -- there -- we have a list of things.
    Maybe we should circulate it.  Things that are going to stick
    out.  Half a dozen things about where does this go.

    DR. THOMAS:  Well, let me suggest.  The isotopes
    chapter, seems to me, to be a dual-purpose chapter as well.  In
    part, it's tracers for studying normal physiology, and it's part
    it's nuclear medicine.

    I wonder maybe trying to roll those two together into
    one chapter is maybe a mistake.  Maybe we should have a tracers
    chapter, and we should have a medical therapy and diagnostic
    chapter, and that latter could include then both diagnostic and
    therapeutic irradiation, whether it's done by isotopes or whether
    it's done by external radiation.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Anything's possible.  When you say the
    logic of the isotopes, is that the way the material flowed, you
    had all the isotope committees, and that's an institutionally-
    organized chapter.

    DR. THOMAS:  Right.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Then a diagnosis versus -- the purpose of
    the use and organized along the regulation.  Yeah?

    DR. MACKLIN:  But the logic of Duncan's suggestion is
    that you then have in one place experiments or research that
    stands to benefit the individual patient, --

    DR. FADEN:  Which we don't have.

    DR. MACKLIN:  -- and that's something that's just --
    threads throughout, and we had a lot of difficulty in talking
    about it.

    DR. FADEN:  That's right.

    DR. MACKLIN:  If that -- if it turns out that we can
    pull out those, both diagnostic, which would be presumably -- I
    mean it's research, but it also stands to benefit that
    individual, and then the radio-therapy, then I think it forms a
    neater conceptual package.

    I mean understanding the problem of the -- well, it
    depends on which concepts one prefers here.  I mean when you're
    talking about risks and benefits, which makes more sense?
    Obviously to you the institutional thing makes more sense because
    we're talking about --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  I'm a lawyer.

    DR. MACKLIN:  Well, because I'm an ethicist, the risk
    benefit discussion is a very different discussion, with or
    without consent, it's a very different or with all the variations
    in consent, it's a very different discussion.  If we're talking
    about things that promise no direct benefit to the experimental
    subject, and on the other hand, the benefit.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Let me just say that that's right, and
    one of the things that -- as you go through these chapters again
    and again and get rid of all the crud, then you see what's really
    at issue here.  So that one way of looking at the bio-
    distribution chapter is that it's not -- it's of no benefit -- no
    direct benefit to the subject chapter, right?  Even if it's
    science research in the latter days of the uranium, it's not that
    they're going to help that particular patient, and, so, the
    question is --

    DR. MACKLIN:  Well, I thought the plutonium was
    alleged.

    DR. FADEN:  No, no.  I mean the UCSF report there
    acknowledges that there was never -- I mean that was the working
    assumption, that there was never even at the time an expectation
    that at least the three --

    DR. MACKLIN:  That was true of the Rochester, all the
    ones done under Rochester, too?

    DR. FADEN:  Well, we haven't seen that, but certainly
    that seems to be the case.

    DR. MACKLIN:  Yeah, but Rochester?  Is also true with
    Rochester?

    DR. FADEN:  That seems to be the case, that -- we have
    to work on this some more, but it does -- it does look like there
    was not even -- certainly in the three cases, including Mrs.
    Bell's father, there's the acknowledgement in the UCSF report
    that there was not an expectation, even at the time, that they --
    that the -- that the persons themselves could have benefitted,
    and that seems to work.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  That's what I mean.  The point Ruth made
    is that one of the things that's critical is taking an obvious
    theme that has to be addressed and seeing that -- when you shake
    out each chapter, that that emerges as a salient theme, and I
    think it may be in the first chapter, the bio-distribution to the
    risk benefit for the non-therapeutic.

    DR. FADEN:  I think that's a very important

    -- I mean it's been a problem, and I think that's really a good
    one.  I don't think it takes away from the -- I mean you don't
    have to change the way the isotope story goes.  It's a different
    kind of story.  To -- it's a different issue, set of issues.
    It's basically how well did the AEC radiation risk committees
    work.  How did they function?  What did they do?  That's a
    different story.

    If I'm telling something about how therapeutic research
    in nuclear medicine and diagnostic and radiation oncology areas,
    --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Here's the problem with this, what we've
    been trying to do is you find out that it's hard enough to get a
    chapter to say anything, you know, it's like the dog that talks,
    right.  I mean in the abstract, you'd like to have a chapter on
    this and a chapter on this, and when you look at the material,
    you say there's no way you can -- so, you try to figure out what
    the hell can I say, and what is the point of all this 60 pages,
    and once you get to that, then you can get fancy about, you know,
    can we -- you know, I mean the --

    DR. MACKLIN:  So, what's the answer to Duncan's
    question about the other radio-therapy experiments?

    DR. FADEN:  We have very little information.  This is
    something we were talking about.  We have very little information
    on research that falls into this category, where it clearly would
    be what we'd call therapeutic research, research where the
    subject stands to benefit.

    Now, I keep saying, you know, where are the studies
    looking at the development of radiation therapy for Hodgkins'
    Disease?  We haven't looked at any of them.  I mean presumably
    there's a whole body of work that was done that could be called
    research, but we have never discussed, talked, whatever.

    DR. GLATSTEIN:  We have focused on certain issues and
    certain projects that had already been granted attention, even
    before this committee ever met.

    DR. FADEN:  That's right.

    DR. GLATSTEIN:  There was controversy, and those are
    things that captured our attention.  We have not looked at those.
    These are things that we chose consciously or subconsciously,
    however you want to view it, but we did not try to cover the
    whole breadth, and I don't think we have time.

    DR. OLEINICK:  But somewhere, we need to, even in a
    very short way, get to the issue of the accomplishments of the
    use of radio-isotopes and irradiation.

    We have a chapter, Chapter 2-A, which is called
    Accomplishments and Distrust.  Now, we haven't had the
    opportunity --

    DR. GLATSTEIN:  Yes, we have to look at that.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  That's not what --

    DR. OLEINICK:  That seems to be just testimony.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Right.

    DR. OLEINICK:  Okay.  But somewhere under that kind of
    a title, under the Accomplishments, --

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Let me just say there are a number of
    ways you can do it.  I mean you can have boxes set aside.  You
    can do it in all kinds of ways rather than having --

    DR. FADEN:  Boxes won't do it.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Well, okay.

    DR. FADEN:  I mean the title of 2-A, Accomplishments
    and Distrust, was -- that's not the chapter to look at, and one
    of the things -- I think we'll talk about it tomorrow when we
    talk about 1 and 2, is that right now, that -- it's not -- that's
    not there.  I mean it's not, it's not in what we have, and I
    don't know, but that's sort of a separate -- one issue is where
    do we want to tell, and where do we want to emphasize the medical
    advances and the accomplishments in that sense that came from
    this work.

    That's in some ways a different issue than the issue of
    do we want to deal with case studies looking at examples of
    therapeutic research involving cancer patients or other kinds of
    patients, and that's where Eli's responding, and I was pointing
    out, we haven't looked, we haven't investigated or looked at --

    DR. GLATSTEIN:  We were highly selective because the
    controversy already existed.

    DR. FADEN:  We can do the other one.  We've got to
    figure out where.  I mean we can do a story, tell the story of
    the advances for the medical care of people, and the benefits
    that now exist because radiation research with human subjects was
    allowed to go forward.  That's a different task from sitting
    there and saying let's look at eight experiments that involved
    cancer patients or other kinds of patients in which the -- from
    the beginning, these people stood to benefit, of how they were
    conducted and whether consent was obtained and how people viewed
    it and all that kind of stuff, and we don't have documents on
    that.  We haven't looked at studies like that.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Well, actually, it's not -- we discussed
    this yesterday.

    DR. FADEN:  We do have some?

    MR. GUTTMAN:  No.  We actually have to make something
    clear for the record.  In our data base, it's true we have a
    relatively small number of radiation, especially external
    radiation, therapy, and we discussed that --

    DR. FADEN:  We have almost no information on that.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  Well, --

    DR. FADEN:  A journal article, maybe.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  -- Pat Perentesis has been down looking
    at the National Library and trying to pull all of that series,
    but for whatever reason, it doesn't -- there's not the vast
    preponderance of, you know, there are not thousands of these
    things that might --

    DR. FADEN:  Well, that's not -- those -- Ron looks
    desperate.  He looks desperate.

    DR. NEUMANN:  There are journals on that subject.

    DR. FADEN:  Yeah, I know.

    MR. GUTTMAN:  I defer to Ron.

    DR. NEUMANN:  There are two problems that I think put
    us in that position.  One is, as Eli said, because of all the
    attention on a few negative cases that were brought very early to
    our attention, the bulk of the research efforts has been focused
    on that, and the only one of those that's not isotopic happens to
    be TBI, a major project.

    The other is for some peculiar reason, and I discussed
    this in E-mail, I think that institutions assumed we were only
    interested in radio-nuclide or isotope work, partly because of
    our funding and link and sponsorship by the DOE perhaps, but also
    because the regulatory efforts that were put in place after the
    War focused on isotopes.  There was not equivalent of this type
    of distribution review, for example, for x-ray machines or other
    types of external therapy machines.

    So, we've tended to focus on --

    DR. GLATSTEIN:  Partly true and partly not true in the
    sense that the --

    DR. NEUMANN:  Well, at the federal --

    DR. GLATSTEIN:  -- NRC certainly has supervision over
    external beams with isotopes, that is to say, Cobalt units.

    DR. NEUMANN:  Right.

    DR. GLATSTEIN:  The accelerators do not come under that
    heading.

    DR. NEUMANN:  Right.

    DR. GLATSTEIN:  We've basically been immune to that.

    DR. NEUMANN:  Right.  I -- the point wasn't made to say
    that as much, Eli.  I don't think when people responded in these
    various agency groups who were collecting experiments for our
    attention, that they tended to focus on things that were perhaps
    funded with that form of external -- I think they tended to focus
    because of the preponderance of material we received as clearly
    radionuclide based, and, of course, the AEC was fundamentally in
    that business to a much greater extent than they were in
    distributing a few sealed sources that they were involved with.

    So, my guess is, as Dan stated, we have very little
    information about all the work that went on in diagnostic
    radiology, some of which clearly could have led to exposures and
    a potentially dangerous range in angiography and other techniques
    where there's long exposure, and also that would be the case for
    much of conventional radiation therapy that's not internally
    administered radio-nuclide based.

    DR. FADEN:  Eli?  I'm sorry.  Duncan?

    DR. THOMAS:  I'm just afraid that the reader is going
    to read all of Part 2 and come to the conclusion that radiation
    research is all of it bad.

    There's one side of the coin that needs -- there's one
    aspect that needs to come across, and that is, of course, all
    that we've learned that benefits mankind through medical
    treatment and diagnosis.

    Now, that -- there is a story here, though, because
    this does not come without cost, and there are well-known hazards
    associated with medical use of radiation, both for therapy and
    for diagnosis.  Most of us believe that those -- that the risk
    benefit ratio is still clearly in the favor of appropriate use.

    Now, over the course of history, use has not always
    been appropriate.  Perhaps they didn't know it at the time, but
    there's -- on the one hand, there's this message of the risks and
    the toll which people pay in order to advance our knowledge, and
    then there's a question of how the research was conducted.  Those
    are exactly the same questions that we're asking in all of the
    others.  Those are fundamental ethics questions.

    I agree.  We may not have a lot of documentation about
    the way these studies were carried out at the time, although I
    suspect by and large, we don't have very much documentation about
    the ethical conditions for most of these other ones as well.  I
    think we're wracking our brains over, you know, what were
    patients told in the TBI or bio-distribution studies.

    So, we're no less ignorant in this case, and indeed we
    have a lot of information at least about the way things are done
    today.  So, perhaps we could rely on some of that to help us
    write this chapter.

    DR. FADEN:  What I'm hearing are two things.  One, that
    there's a proposal or a consideration that we have a chapter that
    focuses on research and diagnostic and therapeutic uses of
    radiation that would -- with a particular slant towards research
    where the subjects were patients who could potentially benefit
    from their participation, and the other is that the report
    overall has to have a clear place, maybe several clear places,
    where the accomplishments of human radiation research for medical
    care are -- where those accomplishments are articulated, and we
    may want to do both or one, depending on how it goes.

    As a point of order, it is 5:00.  We should probably
    stop because it is 5.  I have a sense that we've just started --
    just kind of gotten started because we haven't had much time to
    talk as a committee, but I think in fairness to people who've
    made commitments or plans or whatever, and the fact that you've
    got to read tonight, you have homework, and that tomorrow and
    Friday won't be nearly as good if you don't read, I think we
    should stop at 5.

    We will start at 8:30 tomorrow morning, and we have our
    work cut out for us.  Okay.

    (Whereupon, at 5:10 p.m., the meeting was adjourned, to
    reconvene tomorrow morning, Thursday, March 16th, 1995, at 8:30
    a.m.)

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