CKLN 88.1 FM  Ryerson Polytechnical University  Toronto
INTERNATIONAL CONNECTION
MIND CONTROL SERIES  TAPE 47a
Host/Producer:  Wayne Morris
DON GILLMOR: author of "I Swear by Apollo"

Good morning and welcome to another International Connection. This is
actually our LAST SHOW in our radio series on mind control which has been
running almost a year now on this time slot. Today we are going to be
finishing off the series with a discussion on government and military mind
control. Last week we had a panel on the ritual abuse aspects of mind
control, and this week we are focusing on the history of government in
developing mind control. I am joined in the studio by Don Gillmor who is
the author of "I Swear By Apollo" one of the original books to come out
about Dr. Ewen Cameron and the experiments that were done at McGill
University in Montreal. We are going to be taking phone calls for this show
and you can direct comments or questions to Don or myself. We are going to
introduce what we are going to talk about.

First of all Don, I would like to get your comments about the CBC movie,
The Sleep Room.

DON GILLMOR:

i saw the second half of it, the last 2 hours which dealt with the lawsuit.
>From what I understand the first 2 hours was better, a more accurate
representation of what happened. I have heard since that they were going
more for a truth of the spirit as opposed to truth of the fact - they had
scenes in the second half that certainly didn't take place and they used
the sexier elements you need for made-for-tv (they had a young attractive
woman as Joe Rauh's assistant as opposed to an earnest enterprising young
guy as was the case with James Turner). The aspects that were the most
interesting in the television show were the fact that they showed the
futility and difficulties in taking a group of largely disenfranchised
group of people and trying to sue one government, and in this case it ended
up being two governments - just what you are up against. And how the burden
of proof is on those people. It is so difficult to prove their case - which
is to say there is no doubt that these people were damaged and I think in
the minds of most people there is no doubt that Cameron certainly
exacerbated that.

But then you go to the case of, 'well these people already had problems'.
You have then how much culpability does the government have and how much
culpability does the American government have given that they funded
$67,000 worth of an ongoing program. You end up with all these kinds of
issues - who is to blame ultimately?
I think the culpability can be spread around, but ultimately you have to
look at Cameron in this case as being the most specific cause of all these
problems.

WAYNE MORRIS:

But I would also like to put that in the context of the wider picture. We
have seen now other groups of victims of government experimentation come
forward - I am speaking of the syphilis experiments in Tuskagee and also
the radiation experiments that were exposed at the hearings in Washington,
and the Presidential apology.
It seems like this is recurring - it all seems very familiar. The larger
issue here at stake is that governments of the world should not be
experimenting on their citizens for military or intelligence or for
whatever purposes. It seems like the United States has a history of abusing
their citizens and citizens in other countries 
for experimentation. I am just wondering when it is going to stop.
There has been most recently a Bill put forward by Senator John Glenn to
try to curb or end human experimentation. There is pressure from various
lobby groups. Also Bill Clinton himself sent out a Presidential Memo in
March 1997 informing all branches of government not to engage in
experimentation on humans with uninformed consent.

DON GILLMOR:

Certainly that's been a problem, it has been a problem in the past. But I
think when you look at it you have to look at the degrees of sophistication
that are taking place. Back in the fifties for example you have this
incredibly disorganized approach to mind control. The CIA essentially
trying and funding anything - anything that caught their eye. There is
another guy at McGill - Harold Prince - who was studying the Aruba Indians
in Nigeria. They gave him $17,000 just in the off chance that something
would come out of it. It was an incredibly disorganized shot-gun approach. 

In the cases of say, the syphilis experiments, what you have is a paradigm.
You will always have a researcher who is ambitious enough to push the edge
of the envelope as far as ethics go. And you will always have groups who
are disenfranchised enough that they either have no power over what is
happening, or they will in fact 'volunteer'. You will get people who are
poor enough that they will take the $50 a day and go and be the
experimental subject. When you say these things have to stop, I think
that's true. It's a question of can you simply stop them by decree - I
don't think so. I think there is a kind of organic quality. You always find
these things rising up. As long as you have these sets of social problems,
as long as you have the medical system working the way it does - the more
successful research papers you have, the more research money you are going
to get - you are going to have these kinds of situations happening on a
subtler basis than they happened back in the 1950's. It's still happening.

WAYNE MORRIS:

That raises a couple of points. To end this it is going to be a movement of
the people that end this, or act as a watch group over these activities. It
seems like the government or the various individuals and organizations
involved in this kind of research don't seem to be able to put those
ethical limits onto themselves for a number of reasons. As always it is
going to take public pressure both to expose this, and to prevent future
incidents of abuse.

It also raises important questions about the techniques and practices of
psychiatry as a whole. We are seeing unbelievable rises in the use of ECT
today - and these are the same things that Cameron was held accountable for
and his victims were reimbursed. It is an ongoing problem. Those issues
have to be addressed by the wider psychiatric community as well.

DON GILLMOR:

The electroshock is an interesting case because it is sort of the great
guilty secret of the psychiatric profession in that there is a fair amount
of disapproval, but it's always been cited as one of the things that
"works" - the reason for the disapproval is because it is very intrusive,
and partly because there is still no recognized methodology on how it
works. No one knows why it appears to work. They say it works, and they
mean in the case of severe depressives who were suicidal before ECT, and
now they are not. If you are looking at it from that kind of profit and
loss equation - and in some cases they are - they say we have saved someone
as a result of using intrusive treatment. 

When Cameron was using electroshock, there were no limits on its use and it
was a much higher voltage - in some cases 3 times highers than the ones
they use now. He was using 150 ECT treatments. He had this unbelievably
intrusive experiment basically and he was trying to erase all aspects of
the personality. Now as I recall in Ontario if you use more than six
electroshock treatments on a patient, you have to appeal to a committee
within the hospital. I think there is someone from outside the hospital on
each committee. On the one hand the psychiatric profession has kind of
publicly suggested they don't use it very much and that is intrusive, a
kind of medieval thing. On the other hand, quietly, inside the profession,
there is support for it. The danger here again is 'what are they doing? why
does it work?' It was invented forty years ago and there is still no reason
for why it works.

WAYNE MORRIS:

To me it seems like the reason why it works is that is a very blunt tool -
and that it does cause brain damage. The reason why it so-called 'works' is
because it just makes people forget their pain and whatever they are going
through, and numbs them out to reality as a whole. Whether that is called
successful treatment is questionable in my mind. I can see in the more
severe cases that ECT has saved lives, but my contention is that it is
being grossly over-used
currently for people who should not have this treatment, and it should only
be used as a last resort. They are using it as a first resort now and
that's my objection to ECT. The same thing could be said for psychiatric
drugs as well. They are being over-used. As soon as they admit somebody,
they are often immediately injected with a neuroleptic drug which are
dangerous in themselves.

DON GILLMOR:

It think it's true that drugs are being over-used and probably ECT is as
well. In a way we are reverting to some degree back to what we came from,
which is essentially what you had in the fifties were these huge
institutions. At McGill for example, the St. Jean de Dieu Hospital had over
6000 patients and the Douglas Hospital had 3000. The Douglas Hospital had
three psychiatrists on staff to deal with 3000 patients. Essentially they
didn't have the resources to treat these people in any meaningful way so
all you did was lock them up and do what you could to keep them from
killing themselves. Drugs and ECT are to some degree crude instruments that
free up resources in terms of hospital space and doctors - so you give
these people drugs - send them back out. The cycle of
de-institutionalization which also came out of the Allen, not through
Cameron, but other doctors. The nightmare of that is that you are using
them in effect to replace funding for other things. Politically it's not an
attractive or sexy hook to say we are going to spend $55 million on halfway
houses and social workers and psychologists to integrate these people into
society. It's much more attractive to say we are going to fund drug
research and then we won't have to deal with any of this stuff - we won't
need this kind of infrastructure - we will have a drug - the magic bullet
theory. It was proven wrong thirty years ago, but it is still lingers - if
we just found the right drug, the right combination, we are so close, etc.
But you still end up with someone who basically is asymptomatic - you don't
have someone who can function in conversations, who knows how to get a job.
You are still left with those kinds of things. It's a very difficult
political sell.

WAYNE MORRIS:

i would like to talk about the actual goals Cameron had, why he was doing
these experiments, and particularly as I focused on the series on the
allegations that have come forth from survivors of government mind control
who are alleging that they have been used in experiments involving ECT and
drugs, hypnosis, trauma to cause dissociation, and that aspect of
dissociation being an important one in terms of the intelligence and
espionage capabilities they have. Being able to carry out these operations
without any memory of doing them. A lot of the things that Cameron was
experimenting with seem to have been perfected and used and now in
operational use by government and military. Of course we don't have 'hard
proof' of this but the existence of these many people, hundreds of people
coming forth with the same allegations from cross the continent
and the world in fact, suggests that something is going on.

We have a caller.

WOMAN:

(snip) pick them up off the streets and inject them - they are passing
legislation now to be much more adamant about that, and not let people sort
of work their way back into society. I think a lot of this may have to do
with political dissidents actually from the point of view of what's been
happening with the real right wing agenda in North America and particularly
in this province. They may feel that a lot of the people who are involved
such as the poor who are involved with OCAP and various other situations -
may be in a kind of in-between, no-man's land, where hey we can put a lot
of these dissidents under the boot if we want to, if we actually use this
method. When you think that John Hinkley was George Bush's next-door
neighbour's son who tried to kill Regan - I mean it gets all very X-Files
when you think about what can be done if you want to use people for certain
specific reasons. 

Also on your show you mentioned at one point that Ewen Cameron was
protected by Mila Mulroney's father in some kind of court room situation or
something or other - that he had something to do with the protection of
Cameron. I would like to know who her father was and what his connection
was in terms of the overall connection with George Bush and Brian Mulroney
sitting on Peter Monk's Board of CEO's and the connection there - and the
political connection where these people are involved in power plays and how
now we are getting legislation which is coming down harder on people who
are suspected as being "borderline psychiatric cases" so they can actually
force drugs on them. I just see a real political agenda going on here.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Absolutely. This "involuntary outpatient committal" is totally uncalled-for
- forcing these harmful drugs on people who have a history of being
psychiatric "consumers". Mila Mulroney's father is Dr. Pivnicki at the
Allen Memorial who is a prominent psychiatrist - I don't have many details
about his cover-up. I think Don Weitz has covered that more on Shrink-Rap.

DON GILLMOR:

He is a doctor at the Allen Memorial and he would have been a relatively
young doctor when Cameron was running things. He was in a fairly junior
position. The connection has been I think to some degree blown out of
proportion because Cameron's work was relatively secluded in the sense that
there was a handful of people he had more or less hand-picked to work on
his specific area of research. Pivnicki wasn't one of them from the
documents. Cameron's research was fairly well known, it wasn't secretive.
Pivnicki was simply there at the same time. Now I suspect he may have had -
I don't know if he was sympathetic to Cameron - but he certainly would have
wanted to put Cameron's work into a larger psychiatric perspective and try
to avoid the political connection. I think that in effect where Pivnicki
stood.

WOMAN:

The U.S. has a sort of nasty history of sub-contracting out their nasty
bits and pieces of CIA movements in other countries. Canada being forced to
more or less come in on the Iraqi bombing and things like that - when in
fact most Canadians don't want to have blood on their hands and why should
we? Luring us into these situations so we are partners in crime at a
certain level - makes you wonder about Britain always, always kowtowing to
the US no matter what is going on. Is it a matter of the tail wagging the
dog - and we are really having to look deeper in the subterranean depths -
who did what to who at an international level. Why are we coming up with
policies that generally are globally having more of a right wing oppressive
way of negating millions of lives - either through economic genocide or
some other form of pressure. 

I just find that psychiatry and other tools like that are being used with
specific intentions and you don't have to be a paranoid 'nut' to see these
things. They are cropping up everywhere. I think with the net - there is a
lot of panic among the right wing because too much information is escaping
and therefore you are getting a speed-up in a lot of areas because they are
wanting to overtake things before those things overtake them.  I just would
say, get more information out - because that's the only way. Right now,
they are like coming in with the draggers, in terms of small fishing boats
which used to be able to keep the public in a state of ignorance and
ioppress them. Now they are starting to get out the huge draggers so that
people are not going to be informed. Alternative radio stations and people
who have the information - in terms of your show - have got to keep getting
the information out because they are running scared with the worldwide net
because more and more information is escaping, thank God. That's all I have
to say.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Thank you for your comments. I think you have raised some interesting
points about the political coercion that goes on, for example the second
attack on Iraq. I think that coercion happens at a lot of different levels.
It seems like they are not as concerned as in the past of coercing the
public's opinion - particularly in Ontario - they just ignore the public's
opinion. The coercion seems to be happening at the higher political levels
in terms of their desire to implement whatever the issue is. One thing that
has been raised in this series is the use of mind control for political
coercion and I think that is an area that really needs to be investigated.
What kind of government, democracy, are we living in when all of our
politicians and officials have the ability to be manipulated in this way,
being blackmailed by using these mind control victims from whom we have
heard allegations?

DON WEITZ (caller):

Someone made a statement about shock which is wrong - that some people stop
being suicidal after ECT. I have reviewed a great deal of the literature
and Dr. Peter Breggin has a book, "Brain Disabling TTreatments in
Psychiatry". There is not one shred of evidence that ECT has prevented or
can prevent anyone from commiting suicide. It always damages the brain, it
disables the mind and it should be abolished. Dr. Breggin is one of the
very few doctors in the Western world who has called for the abolition of
ECT. It always disables the brain - there is nothing good to be said about
this treatment.
It's a lie when they say they don't know how it works - they know very well
how it works - it always to disable the brain. The inventor of electric
shock, Ugo Cerletti an Italian who invented ECT after seeing how
electricity stunned pigs on the way to the slaughterhouse - he decided to
use it on "unwilling" schizophrenic patients. It subdues the patient. When
you think that the brain only needs 1/1000 of a millivolt to survive or to
live - they are dumping now as much as 175-200 volts of electricity into
the human brain. That's a hell of a lot more than what comes out of your
electrical socket at home. So, no. One doesn't need a doctor to know that
this is really an abomination, and it's a crime against humanity, and it
should be stopped. I have been trying to say that on CKLN more than once.
What is particularly upsetting now is that the escalating use of ECT in
North America is targeting elderly women, and I have statistics that show
that 70% of the women who get electric shock are over 65 in Ontario. The
same thing is happening in the US and no one is speaking out.

ECT has always been a mind control weapon, but what a lot of people
have to realize is that it subdues, pacifies in a brutal way. People come
out with huge chunks of memory loss. To this day, the Canadian Psychiatric
Association as you know, has never apologize to the victims of Cameron's
brainwashing experiments. The CPA has never done that - in fact they
obstructed the miniscule amount of awards that were given to the survivors
of Cameron. The CPA have consistently lied to the public and the victims by
saying that your memory will be as good as ever. People permanently lose
huge chunks of memory - Wendy Funk in Vancouver is still trying to get her
case in court. She has lost 30 years of her life after undergoing 40+
electric shocks in Alberta in the 80's. She has no memory of growing up.
Please. Do not say electric shock can prevent suicide. Absolutely not.

WAYNE MORRIS:

It seems to me that these methods of psychiatric treatment such as electro
shock and the harmful drugs, seem to be a bandaid, quick-fix solution where
really the more traditional psychotherapy in terms of talking with the
people who are needing help, talking through their problems, creating more
opportunities in their lives. I think a lot of so-called mental illnesses
actually have roots in social problems to a great degree.

DON GILLMOR:

Electric shock is a very crude instrument and anyone can use it. The drugs
are much more sophisticated and the people who prescribe them don't really
understand them that well. Whereas forty years ago it was the clinicians
who were experimenting with them. They were experimenting on the people
they were treating and they had a firsthand account of what was happening
to those people. The drugs have become so sophisticated they are
essentially a separate science. You have the neurosciences over here, and
psychiatrists somewhere else. In fact there is almost no common language
now. Drugs are coming out on a monthly basis and to keep up with the
literature is simply impossible. Doctors are taking short-cuts, they are
not understanding the side effects, over-prescribing.

DON GILLMOR:

But you had people misusing them and overusing them, and simply not
understanding them. The people who are describing them don't have any kind
of real great understanding of how these things work.

WAYNE MORRIS:

I guess it is my concern that psychiatry as a whole has moved towards just
offering drugs as a solution, instead of investigating other ways to help
people. These drugs in themselves can have a very damaging effect on the
body and brain. I believe we have another caller.

MALE CALLER:

I have been following this mind control series from the beginning, and find
that the evidence from the survivors, and therapists and research experts
is solid proof of the existence of ritual abuse and mind control - it has
gone on, and it is still going on. Yet when the CBC aired the mini-series,
In The Sleep Room, they advertised a comedy about dysfunctional families
during that segment, in that time slot - they made a comical comment about
it, which I found very distasteful - and the drama about Ewen Cameron was
not accurate. Also on a phone-in TV show, Jane Hawtin Live, she had a
couple of doctors from Mt. Sinai talking about cloning and how it could be
beneficial. One of the doctors made a joke about multiplicity - it seems
that some of the information is getting out and some of the professionals
are not taking it seriously.

I also heard a radio commercial which poked fun at someone who had multiple
personalities and how she had to go for therapy before she could have any
serious relationship. It seems that the CKLN series has reached a lot of
people, but mainstream commercial culture is making a big joke about it.
Do you think we will have a culture that will be bent on having a split
belief system, where they make fun of schizophrenia in that manner, where
money and drugs dominate one belief system -- and true values and therapy
for MPD will be an underground belief?

WAYNE MORRIS:

I think that's what we are seeing today. Certainly in all of the
information that is coming, there is going to be backlash and that
certainly has been happening with organizations such as the False Memory
Syndrome Foundation trying to discredit any valid accounts coming forward.
In terms of the media, I think you are absolutely right. They are not
taking this seriously, they haven't taken this seriously. It's something
that should have been addressed by the professional media years ago and
they have failed to do so. They still refuse - with very few exceptions -
to look at the evidence. We have to ask the question: what are the power
relationships there, between the media and the people who are actually
performing these experiments in the government. Thank you for your comments.

FEMALE CALLER:

Thanks a lot for this series. It has really meant a lot to me to listen to
it. I'm a counsellor and I mostly work with women over the last 25 years.
One thing I would like to point out that makes me very nervous is the idea
of the Clarke Institute for Psychiatry merging with the Addiction Research
Foundation - the neanderthals at the Clarke must be rubbing their hands
together just at the thought of getting a hold of drug users. It makes me
very nervous as to what they may do insofar as continuing the electroshock
experimentation.

The other thing is one of the things I find, just in my experience, I will
speak strictly from my experiences - there seem to be quite a few parallels
with women - post partum depression - this is usually a time when a lot of
women have discovered (after the birth of their first child) that they were
sexually abused themselves and there is a real strong tie-in with post
partum depression and previous sexual abuse in the new mother. One thing
that makes me nervous for these women especially - because they have been
used a lot in the system for drug experimentation, electroshock - just
because they are depressed. It's a lot easier for the medical establishment
to drug up patients rather than to listen to them and work with them. It is
hard work.  Getting to the bottom of some of these issues doesn't seem to
be a priority - the priority seems to be "how can we get funded by a big
pharmaceutical so we can pump up the victim further to make sure they don't
have clarity of thought?"  

I know of only two cases in the last thirty years that I have dealt with
personally where electroshock had any benefit whatsoever. I just want to
say that.

DON GILLMOR:

In the case of Ewen Cameron - that's a good point - because women tended to
make up a disproportionate number of the patients in that institituion.
Part of the problem was that when you had women with post partum depression
or women with post menopausal depression who were coming in - maybe we are
retreating to this now - there was little discrimination between the groups
then. So at the Allen Memorial you had alcoholics, post partum depression,
schizophrenics, major psychotics. And they were all getting essentially the
same treatment at least under Cameron's care. You had people getting very
intrusive treatments who didn't have any kind of symptoms that would
warrant that kind of invasive treatment.

FEMALE CALLER:

Sure. Part of it is that when a woman goes through post partum depression a
lot of it is total withdrawal because her anger at previous sexual abuse is
just so profound - the only way she can deal with it is to withdraw. Most
of these doctors have been men - I hate to say that - it's nothing personal
- but when you think about it, they couldn't perceive and deal with an
angry woman - so of course she had to be crazy so let's drug her up and
shock her up.
That's not her role. She's supposed to be more compliant than that.
How dare she be angry? We were set up - and so many are - still today.
There should be real serious thought given to merging places like the
Clarke with the ARF - every person that uses drugs - whether they are
prescription, recreational, whatever - are going to be pathologized through
this. These kinds of things make me really nervous.

WAYNE MORRIS:

You are absolutely right, and it seems that psychiatry is dominated by the
patriarchy. It seems to be another manifestation of that.
The whole approach of psychiatry - in terms of being very judgmental and
not being open. I think that's why we are at the place where we are in
terms of a quick fix solution with drugs, or shock them. I think if we had
more women in psychiatry hopefully the situation wouldn't be as bad as it
now. I would like to reinforce Don Weitz's sentiments about working towards
the abolishment of psychiatry, because I think they are just barking up the
wrong tree.

FEMALE CALLER:

I agree. Another thing I would like to mention in terms of my experience
with women who have had post partum depression is that number one - it
brings up memories of their own sexual abuse; and number two - we forget
nutrition in a lot of this. In the fifties and sixties when Cameron was in
his heyday, we were all being bombarded by the advertising telling us how
great fast foods and crap like that was. Consequently we forgot to eat
right, and when we don't eat right and we don't have proper nutrition, our
brain doesn't work as well. We get confused, we get dehydrated. How many
people drink a bottle of water a day? It's not much different today. These
things are very significant - if you start to ask somebody about their
eating patterns, you find that they don't have any vitamins and minerals in
their systems. They eat totally processed food.

WAYNE MORRIS:

That's a very important point. And you have raised a significant
point in terms of sexual abuse and post partum depression. I hadn't heard
that before - and I think that's quite intriguing. 

DON WEITZ:

I am glad you are calling for abolition of electroshock. A bunch of us,
survivors, here and in the United States - there are about sixty groups
around the world who are calling for the end of involuntary psychiatry,
which certainly includes electroshock. Electroshock as a primary
brainwashing weapon was always used, and still is used, against people's
will. There is no such thing as giving "informed consent" for ECT - in
order to give consent, you have to be informed, and people are being lied
to by these shock doctors.
They are not told about permanent memory loss; they are not told about
brain damage; they are not told about the permanent problems with
concentration. I just wanted to make it clear that when Cameron
and others whom he trained, and who are now heads of psychiatry across
Canada use electroshock - they are assaulting you - they are assaulting the
brain. In the case of women, I call it psychiatric rape, and it is
disheartening that more groups among the elderly and women are not speaking
out as much as they might against electroshock - because it is targeting
the elderly and women. 

You might have mentioned Wayne - about the problems in the media.
The latest Toronto Star series - from January 10 to the 16 - was a
disgusting, demonizing series. If people weren't stigmatized before the
Star series. It makes everybody who has a psychiatric history - or  who
might come under the gun of a psychiatrist - a criminal. It promoted the
myth of the "dangerous mental patient". This is the kind of media
indoctrination that is really dangerous, and has to be resisted. I think
they are laying the groundwork for forced drugging in the community for
outpatient committal - which I have to say is
unfortunately coming to Ontario and other provinces unless we resist. It is
a form of fascism. Psychiatric fascsim. I urge people to sue any doctor who
gives them treatment against their will.
And to not buy or subscribe to the Toronto Star until it publishes articles
written by psychiatric survivors, and stop pushing the medical model of
mental illness.

WAYNE MORRIS:

We have heard allegations from survivors of government mind control who
talk about the use of electricity and electroshock within their control. It
is an extremely coercive method of controlling somebody. Electroshock seems
to be unbelievably painful and has been used as an instrument of torture in
traumatizing these people and contribute to the induction of dissociation
or multiple personalities for the purpose of mind control. That this
instrument of torture and trauma
is used as a method of treatment is quite ironic.

DON GILLMOR:

In a way to some degree, there has to be discrimination between the
literal concepts - mind control and brainwashing. Brainwashing from the
literal perspective -  100 electroshocks, chemical means, isolation,
whatever - that term is apt and you end up reducing the brain. In the case
of ECT people had lost their ability for language. They were regressed
right back to almost an infancy -
erasing their learned behaviour. It would gradually come back in bits and
pieces, leaving out all kinds of things. When you go into the mind control
aspect - in the case of Cameron's work, where he had great success in
brainwashing but literally no success -
a spectacular lack of success in mind control. You would have all these ECT
treatments - give a repeated message on a tape loop half a million times,
repeated for months. At the end of that period, they couldn't repeat that
message. After hearing it for half a million times, the brain would resist
to such a degree. The brain is very complex. You could reduce it, but you
couldn't build it back up again and that was the problem with Cameron, and
that was the reason the CIA quit their funding. He had been writing papers
saying he had 100% success rate, in fact his success rate was approaching
zero.
When they looked at the work firsthand, they realized there was nothing
there for them [CIA] - the patients were incapable of doing anything. He
had reduced them to almost a vegetative state, incapable of functioning.
Brainwashing and mind control are, in effect, two separate ideas.

MALE CALLER (Terry Parker):

I wonder if people in this city, province, country are aware of the fact
that children who are subject to epilepsy are being used for psychosurgical
experimentation consisting of brain tissue removal showing no pathology -
including the trespass of U-shaped metallic implants - does this have any
role to play in the research of mind control?

WAYNE MORRIS:

In our interview with Dr. Colin Ross at the start of the series, he did
speak of how epilepsy patients have been systematically used by the mind
control doctors. There is going to be more information about that in his
upcoming book. Hopefully we will have some good documentation around that.
I don't have too many other details about epilepsy patients being used for
mind control, but it's something that definitely be looked into.

TERRY PARKER:

Does Mr. GILLMOR have any kind of understanding about the issue of
psychosurgery - psychiatric brain mutilation, removal of brain tissue?

DON GILLMOR:

No, not in the context you are talking of. The only context I have any
familiarity with is with Cameron's work which involved some of those
elements, but he was operating at a very crude level. Incredibly poor
scientist, among other things. 

TERRY PARKER:

I have been told by the Inspector for Complaints of the Ontario College of
Physicians and Surgeons that I am a victim of a criminal code offence, the
College  has no jurisdiction to initiate a criminal investigation against
its members, go to the police. I go to the Toronto Police 52 Division, and
they are telling me, go back to the College. I go to the Federal
government, they pass it off to the Provincial government, they pass it to
the College, the College passes it on to the Police and it's a complete
rigamorol. It really concerns me that we have doctors today who are
obtaining consent by false pretence - they get the parent(s) to give an
inch, and they take a mile and a half. It's a damn shame that children with
epilepsy in this country are not being allowed to have full informed
consent when it comes to brain mutilation for psychiatric research.
I myself am very alarmed looking at 43 implants in the right temporal lobe
of yours truly's brain - and I wonder if I am not a Manchurian Candidate -
or better yet a marijuana candidate. We have no accountability from the
doctors, and the media sits on the boards f directors of Toronto Sick
Children's Hospital and they will not address it and yet they take great
joy in covering it up. It's quite sickening.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Thanks for your comments Terry. That's definitely something we are going to
be investigating in the next radio series. I might as well make an
announcement now. We are going to be starting an investigative series into
the history and development of brain implants and electronic weaponry -
directed energy weapons - due to start this summer on this show.

We should also address other things people can do to stop or call for an
investigation into the mind control experiments. There is an ongoing
campaign right now to call for a Presidential Hearing like the Radiation
Hearings - into the mind control experiments on children and that is being
spearheaded here in Canada by Lynne Moss-Sharman in Thunder Bay, and
ACHES-MC, the Advocacy Committee for Human Experimentation Survivors - Mind
Control. There is an active campaign right now for this and if the public
wants to lends its support, you can write to the Canadian, USA or
International
contacts for ACHES-MC to support the demand for a Presidential Hearing to
declassify and release the documents regarding mind control.  The numbers
to call are Canada 1-807-622-5407 Lynne Moss-Sharman
(lsharman@microage-tb.com); U.S.A. Patty Rehn 1-541-388-5068
(aches@bendnet.com); International Blanche Chavoustie PO Box 108, Syosset,
N.Y. 11791 (c4ixxx@aol.com). Both Prime Minister Chretien and Foreign
Affairs Minister Lloyd Axworthy have responded to a request for an
investigation, but the Canadian government has not acted concretely on
behalf of survivors. 

Don, in your investigation into Cameron, did you encounter much obstruction
in terms of getting government documentation, particularly from the USA?
Did you make the attempt to try and get CIA documents?

DON GILLMOR:

I tried to get the documentation from the States and what had been released
initially - the first round of original documents - which everyone had used
- John Marks, etc. It wasn't really possible unless you embarked on a very
expensive legal battle which is difficult to do financially, and to marshal
it from here because you have to go through a Washington lawyer. It was
more accessible to try and get documents from the Allen Memorial - not an
easy thing either - but at least you can get some documents from there.
Ultimately though the best record of this ends up being somewhat anecdotal
- from doctors who were there and had differing perspectives back then -
what you need is someone who felt that Cameron's work was unethical - even
in the context of the times.
This was always a big issue, people saying, 'well given the context of the
times it wasn't all that intrusive' and there were people at the time who
felt it was, in fact, unethical, and that ends up being the most valuable
source.  I would suspect in the case of ongoing battles of a like-minded
nature, those are the key ingredients, to find people who were near these
kinds of things but disapproved for various reasons. That's going to be a
very difficult thing to find, but if they are found, if people do come
forward, that will be of value.

MALE CALLER:

I am a survivor of total mind control - I am 27 years old - I came to this
country nine years ago - I have a real scare for things that are going on
around me - when I see this kind of political economy - especially in this
province (Ontario). I was being segregated in a ghetto from my own people
because they had a plan to just to exploit me. After I was segregated I was
forced to live in a rooming house and there was a kind of a gas sprayed
through my door and there was like a sophisticated way - they used a heater
- they made a little hole from downstairs - I used to live on the second
floor - and they sprayed the gas. That is supposed to be against the law -
but there wasn't a law in terms of my research from 1996. I have received
the law books. The Canadian Law.  The Criminal Code especially - before
February 1996 you cannot find any information about LSD - but now it has
been covered up in the way to confuse the readers - the people who are
musicians or something - the people - there are two kinds of LSD - one is a
D type and one is the surgical type.

WAYNE MORRIS:

And I think a lot of the focus has been put on LSD drug testing when in
fact they have tested hundreds of drugs from my understanding, trying to
have some effect on what they want to do. A lot of these are drugs that
will induce hypnosis or induce trance states, a lot of other drugs are used
for coercion. I don't think LSD is the only one they have been testing -
there have been hundreds of them. Dangerous drugs such as scopalomine have
been used. 

MALE CALLER:

I don't have to see other people to see my results. That's only me. From my
own feedback to those people - their expectation was just my feedback - my
response them. I am really glad just to hear your own program - it did help
me for my own research. I have a friend that I lost, you know, he was
killed here. Actually I am from Ethiopia.
It's very hard. I lost nine years, my young age here, really. I was
supposed to do some other things. I did have a university education for my
background - I was supposed to do my university education here, I was
supposed to work hard, I was supposed to help my family, but now I am being
turned down, you see. Some kind of mental shit.
Thanks so much.

WAYNE MORRIS:


Thank you for your comments, and I wish you the best of luck in trying to
get what's going on with you exposed, and understood by
yourself, and hopefully get some justice.

I think we have just about run out of time, and we will wrap it up. I would
like to thank all of the people who have phoned in and contributed to this
show. I would like to thank Don Gillmor for coming in to participate.
Thanks go to Darren for teching and to Min Suk who was our tech last week -
I forgot to say that last week.
   

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR SUPPORT IN DOING THIS RADIO SERIES. It has been
quite a journey for me. I didn't know it was going to last this long.
Definitely the issues are very important to a lot of people, and I thank
you for your support. You have been listening to CKLN.
That's it. Thank you for listening. Stay tuned next week. It's
International Women's Day on CKLN.

