CKLN  88.1 FM RYERSON POLYTECHNICAL UNIVERSITY  Toronto
MIND CONTROL RADIO SERIES
Producer/Interviewer:  Wayne Morris
Tape 46a  Gail Fisher-Taylor & Caryn Stardancer

This is broadcast 46 of the radio series that has been going on for about
one whole year on this show concerning government military mind control and
cult ritual abuse. Today we are going to be focusing on the latter aspect
of this - ritual abuse and we are going to be talking about a lot of
different issues within that topic and I have with us in the studio Toronto
psychotherapist, Gail Fisher-Taylor and we should have by phone, Caryn
Stardancer, a California-based advocate for survivors and publisher of
"Survivorship".

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

I am a psychotherapist in Toronto. I also do consultation as well as
education in terms of workshops, and one of my areas is definitely
focusing ritual abuse, sadistic abuse, cult abuse.

CARYN STARDANCER:

I am a survivor myself, and when I was in recovery there really wasn't
anything being said about ritual abuse, cult abuse or mind control that I
knew about. There weren't any resources available, so when I finished my
recovery, myself and another survivor began publication of a small
newsletter that we were doing on my friend's kitchen table and sending it
out.  Now we have an international non-profit. We have members in every
state of the USA, and all the provinces in Canada, Europe, Australia, New
Zealand. Our membership is made up of survivors and professionals who treat
them. 

WAYNE MORRIS:

I would like to just briefly review the ritual abuse aspects of
the series of the past year as it ties into government mind control. 
We have heard from Dr. Stephen Kent, Professor of Sociology at the
University of Alberta, who specializes in contraversial religious groups,
and ritual abuse, alleged abuse in this context.

We have also heard from Lynne Moss-Sharman, a survivor and
advocate who started The Stone Angels group for ritual abuse survivors from
the Thunder Bay area and her testimony of the
prevalence of ritual abuse in that area, more particularly
within the Masonic Lodge context. We have also heard from
Jeanette Westbrook, a survivor in the United States. Her father
and his friends had allegedly ritually abused her as a child and teenager,
and it's very interesting in that she did attemptl to
bring her father to court. He died just before being extradited
to face charges. Her father was responsible for all the nuclear
power plant inspections in the United States, not to mention
being a Mormon church deacon, boy scout leader, 33 degree
Mason, and so forth.

We heard the testimony given to the U.S. government radiation
hearings by Claudia Mullen, and the ritual aspects of her
experimentation. We heard from quite a number of other people -
other survivors of government mind control that has also had
a ritual abuse aspect. There seem to be many levels of this
kind of activity, and I would like to talk about that.

We have heard from government mind control survivors who have
experienced ritual abuse in that context, for a particular
purpose. There have also been many allegations of people being
involved local cult activity. I would like to ask you both
what your experiences or perceptions are in terms of the 
different levels of cult activity and its purpose.

CARYN STARDANCER:

Without trying to go on too long (these things can sometimes
turn into hours), my abuse started in the forties, WWII.
So obviously some of the things I first saw were a mixture of
people who were involved in military, and who were in power
settings and were doing that kind of experimentation. There
were also Masonic connections. In the time I was given "mentorship" I was
told there was something called The Pantheistic Occult, and essentially
what that meant was that there are all different kinds of systems under
which mind control can be perpetrated (or belief systems, religious
beliefs, political beliefs). Basically the idea is that you target a person
- by where their vulnerabilities are - dependent upon their cultural or
educational group, the profession in which they are involved, where their
vulnerabilities are - by what they already believe. 

There are different ways people are brought into the system. Some of them
are churches - there was certainly a church involved in the early contact
with my family. What the Pantheistic Occult basically meant was that it
basically doesn't matter what the belief system is, it depends on the
person's adaptability, the way they respond to issues of power, and you
move your way up depending on your adaptability. You may never know that
there is a group larger than the one you are involved in, or you may,
depending on how you move through the system, and also how the people who
are in contact with you move through the system.

WAYNE MORRIS:

When you say it doesn't really matter in terms of the specific ideology, do
you think the religious or belief systems involved here are a front for the
abuse, or for other criminal activity?
What part does that play in these groups?

CARYN STARDANCER:

Definitely. For example, the people who were teaching me about the
Pantheistic Occult were directly involved in what was called a Dionysian
Sect. That was explained as having started in pre-Christian times - it had
to do with the profession they were involved in - which was the Law.
Essentially most of what they were doing was political blackmail. The use
of the children had to do with having them adapted to sex - for example,
having them photographed in a film with adults who were being blackmailed.
It was then easy to manipulate them.  

The people bought into it more or less. Some were very cynical about it,
and said it was all about power, it didn't really matter. Other people
really "believed". It's so individual how different people respond. For
example, in the one church I went to some people were very much involved in
satanism, and very much believed, but other people would just laugh about
it privately and just say it's the system to get the minions, to terrorize
them. In that sect, in all of the different groups I've been exposed to,
and that's what I hear from survivors over the world, that it really
depends on who you are, and who you are in contact with - how much people
believe. The belief system is used essentially to indoctrinate, entrance,
terrorize - and it's part of the mind control system in that all mind
control is a conditioned response where feelings are put together with ideas.

WAYNE MORRIS:

It seems like the common thread here, irregardless of how seriously the
participants take their ideology, is the criminal activities.
Perhaps Gail, you could talk about the commonality of the criminal activity
within the accounts of ritual abuse survivors.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

There is a lot of criminal activity, and some people actually talk about
ritual abuse being used as a smoke-screen for criminal activity. Certainly
there are the child and adult pornography 
and prostitution rings; drug trafficking. There are often reports from
survivors of cult connections with organized crime which is the Mafia. We
are talking about really different kinds of groups as well. I have heard
reports from survivors of what seem to be groups of people who get together
and have maybe an informal local cult, and maybe deal in some level of
pornography and prostitution. It seems quite local actually. And I have
also, as Caryn Stardancer is reporting, heard many reports of much more
organized activity where the cults have connections that go far beyond
local activity. And those seem to be the cults that get into the organized
criminal activity.

WAYNE MORRIS:

We are going to be opening the phone lines at around 10 o'clock, so if any
of our listeners have any questions they would like to put to the
panelists, please get ready to do so. 

I would like to get a sense, in terms of the local cults, and however those
start up - how widespread, in your opinion, is this kind of activity
happening across North America?

CARYN STARDANCER:

I would say it is very widespread, considering we have members from all
over the place, from cities to small towns, and also when I was growing up
my exposure was from rural areas to cities. When you talk about the larger
organization - often in a local group a small group may not know anything
about a larger organization, and maybe only one person in that group - who
basically is coming in and has a charismatic power - and that person may be
networked beyond, but no one else in the group ever finds out that the
person may be involved in a number of different groups, and is moving
around. Things are very eclectic.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

A friend of mine, Christine Oksana, who wrote "Safe Passage to Healing"
which is a guide basically for ritual abuse survivors, talks about ritual
abuse as being interwoven in the fabric of society, basically world-wide.
Something else she talks about is the idea that when people are abused,
traumatic re-enactment is really ritual.  There is a ritualization when
people are re-enacting their trauma. What I mean by that is that when
people are traumatized, they repeat something to do with their traumas,
trying to resolve the trauma in some sort of way.

For instance if somebody has been sexually abused, they may have ritualized
kinds of activities that they keep on doing, and don't understand why they
are doing it, they are not connecting it to their trauma. What happens is
that when people are re-enacting traumatic events - eg. if someone has been
sexually abused, and they are perpetrating sexual abuse as an adult and
they get together with  other abusive people who have also been sexually
abused and are re-enacting - there is a ritualization that occurs. We have
everything from informal groups getting together - and as Caryn says, I
agree, I think there is often networking involved and it's interesting how
the networking can occur on those informal and formalized bases.
I think the explanation of trauma underneath a lot of this activity really
explains the great draw people have to do these terrible activities.

CARYN STARDANCER:

Very much so, and it can come from either direction. It can be people who
are re-enacting their trauma and someone may get interested in the whole
mechanism of how having a belief system helps relieve the feeling that "I
am doing something wrong".
You may have one person who is very bright who starts to look into it and
learn more, and then find out there are more people in different places
doing it, and then network from that direction.
Or you may have people who have always had their family or their
connections in the system that come into contact with people who have been
traumatized for example by prostitution, sex clubs, pornography, and in
that way bring people into the group. That's why I mean it is very eclectic.

And then you have these lone psychopathic personalities who are behaving
ritualistically, but to the victim, it doesn't really matter that much
whether it's one person enacting ritualistic torture or whether it's a
whole group of people. The response to it is pretty much the same.  

WAYNE MORRIS:

Within this ritual activity, there have been a lot of allegations of
children being used for either sacrificial victims or further
traumatization of the children for the purposes of mind control.
How typically are children introduced into these cults?

CARYN STARDANCER:

There are too many ways to say there is a typical way. Some are born into
it, some just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's
pretty universal however, and I think it also has a psychological basis in
that anyone who has been abused, and now that we are building on centuries
and centuries of abuse - it requires loss of innocence. There is a part of
the psyche that responds to the idea of sacrifice of innocence because you
have lost your own, and then there is the other parts that just have to do
with how lucrative it is financially to involve children, and also how easy
it is to condition and terrorize children, teach them anything you want to
teach them. There are so many different reasons, and so many different
scenarios. There isn't a simple answer.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

That's what we get a lot of reports of. Of course there are the daycare
cases where children are abused in daycare settings, and there are many
reports where children get involved in these cults through their families
or neighbourhood cults, but as Caryn says, there are a number of different
ways that people get involved - through babysitters, becoming involved with
adults who are involved in the cults.

WAYNE MORRIS:

What do you think is the force that has created these cult activities? Are
they are in a sense 'home-grown' in terms of the
local cults, or is there generally another kind of connection there that
goes back to these organized religious groups, intelligence and military
connections?

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

Again, I think we have a lot of different scenarios, and you have to
remember that there is a long and deep history here. We have reports  of
satanic cults, and other kinds of cults, that go back centuries. There was
certainly a big cult around Louis XIV's time, for instance, with not just
reports, but forensic evidence that there were sacrifices of children, all
kinds of satanic alters found. It's quite a well documented case. We have
cults in history, we know cults exist and we keep getting reports of cults
that are involved in the kind of criminal activity we are talking about,
whether or not the belief system has to do with satanism or some other kind
of belief system - if there is criminal activity, and terrorizing of
children, and mind control - we are basically talking about ritual crime.

CARYN STARDANCER:

Also when you have a belief system - a belief system can either be used to
uplift or to subjugate - and that goes back to the beginning of time. For
example since I was born in a generational system, there were people there
who talked about the occult tradition, and they traced it back directly to
pre-Christian Dionysians. They had a whole occult tradition where they
interpreted history, and they had stories about the different things that
happened to the movement of their group. And that was just one sect that I
was exposed to.

At the same time I have talked to people who are in Native American and
Aboriginal groups who have had their belief systems perverted by - it can
even be by just one person who had been sexually abused who then began to
pervert the rituals for control. There are just so many different ways -
and essentially we just have to realize that a belief system can be used
either to uplift or subjugate. That's why there are so many different
permutations and why it is all the way through history.

WAYNE MORRIS:

A Christian belief system can be reinforced in part of the cult members'
lives as a jumping board for the satanic belief system in their cult
activity? Do you see that duality?

CARYN STARDANCER:

In Christian and satanic cults, absolutely because that is the cultural
context in which good and evil is interpreted, so certainly  you see
Christian groups  who use satanism, and you have satanic groups who use
Christianity. You have Christian groups who simply the concept of
Christianity - that's the way it is. It just depends on the group and the
people and their interpretation, and their connections. It's a belief
system, and a belief system can be used to subjugate or uplift. So
certainly it is used to subjugate in a lot of different instances.

WAYNE MORRIS:

My point more was whether a Christian belief system has been fostered
within the satanic cults, so that the satanic rituals will have more -
there seems to be a perversion of Christianity in satanism. And I wonder
whether they foster the Christian belief systems in order to pervert them
in their cult rituals. And I am talking about the same people here.

CARYN STARDANCER:

Essentially that's what I meant by the cultural context, and a culture that
has a lot of Christians is always going to have the other side. That's just
the duality of Christianity and satanism.So you are always going to see
those things, and yes, they definitely utilize the belief system that has
to do with the symbols of satan and Christ as representing good and evil.
One of the things that helps - when you say 'occult" meaning 'secret' - I
believe the occult belief system goes hand-in-hand with the evolution of
human rights. So as you develop human rights, you make laws against abuse.
And when you make laws against using beliefs for abuse, then that abuse
goes underground. That doesn't mean that there aren't countries where a
religious political system allows abuse because they don't have human
rights yet that have outlawed that activity.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

What you are saying basically Caryn, is that the abuse goes underground if
there are laws against it and that it is overt if there aren't laws against
it, if it is allowed to happen out in the open.

CARYN STARDANCER:

Exactly, and I am sorry I have a dissociative disability and I have a
difficult time with telephones so I have trouble tracking my thoughts since
I am a survivor myself.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

I think your thoughts are going very clearly.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Definitely. I would also like to get a feeling for your impressions of
particularly the cult leaders - their social status - and how can they get
away with operating these cults within the public society?

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

The cult leaders come from, again, a number of different contexts. But I
think what is shocking, and what is difficult for people to believe, is
when those cult leaders happen to also be leaders in other contexts. In
other words, leaders in business, leaders in government, leaders in the
military. And there certainly lots of reports where this is what is being
reported.

CARYN STARDANCER:

In my experience the leaders were always people of power, because the
system was about the hierarchy of power.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

And in terms of the way they get away with it - the structures of power are
such that if there are members of the cult who are both leaders in
business, leaders in terms of let's say members of the police department,
members of the criminal justice system - judges or lawyers - it becomes
often - in these kinds of contexts - an old boys' network. You've got
people protecting other people so if there is any kind of revelation that
this kind of activity is going on, their members in the media are going to
participate in the cover-up, or in the blasphemy, outrageousness of such
allegations. If the police department is involved - and there are often
reports of police being involved. In Saskatchewan, for instance, the
Martensville case. It is very easy for police to conduct an investigation
that will throw their whole case out of court for instance. If you have a
lot of people in many different positions of power, and there is collusion
among them, it is much more difficult especially when the public doesn't
know about the principles of dissociation and the way that trauma works,
the way that the human psyche works around trauma. It is very easy for the
media, police and criminal justice system to play on the public's disbelief.

CARYN STARDANCER:

Also all we have to do is look at something like Watergate or the current
Monica Lewinsky case, and look at how difficult it is to get the facts. In
the Monica Lewinsky case, if anything happened, it was sex between two
adults - look how difficult it is to get any kind of information. When I
was a child, you would have something that would be like a private birthday
party for a powerful person in town. At that birthday party, drugs were
ingested that the people didn't know about - some happened to be judges or
police or certain lawyers - people who have power in that town. In the
course of the evening they would be photographed having sex with little
children, under the influence of drugs, but that didn't make any
difference. If then people had those films, how far are you going to get in
prosecuting if the people who bring the case have that kind of blackmail
evidence available against them?

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

I think you bring up a really important point, Caryn. The way a lot of
these organizations operate is through implication and intimidation. If
these people are implicated in this criminal activity, they are drawn in,
and they can be drawn in and blackmailed as you say, under the influence of
drugs, and under other kinds of influences.

WAYNE MORRIS:

This of course has profound implications for our society where we are
supposed to be electing public officials who will represent the public, but
really how healthy of a system can that be when these layers of blackmail
are happening right up the hierarchy.

CARYN STARDANCER:

It has always been this way. The stories I was told for example, by the
Dionysian Sect - the oldest laws ever passed against ritual abuse were
passed in Rome before Christ and they were made against the very
Dionysians Sects that were still in operation in the forties and fifties,
and which I assume are still in operation now.
The reason the laws were made against them was because at that time there
were citizens and then there were people who were not citizens
- and it was known that in the rituals there were sexual orgies, flaying
(skinning of people), flagellation, abuse and ritual rape of women and
children. That isn't why there were laws made against the groups - the laws
were made against the groups because of the practice of common commission
of crime for the purpose of political blackmail.

WAYNE MORRIS:

I would like to focus now on survivor issues, and what your experiences are
in terms of resources available for survivors, and how that has been
changing over the last ten years or so?

CARYN STARDANCER:

Well, compared to when I was in recovery, there are a lot of resources and
a lot of information. However when we first started making that recovery -
it was a lot better climate. Now there is the backlash, and the backlash is
having a very chilling effect on the availability of services in that even
a therapist who treats a survivor is running risks at this point of suit
under the guise of "alleged false memories". It is really difficult at this
point, although there are still resources available. As I said,
Survivorship has members all over the place, and we provide as much
information as possible and there are still people willing to take the risk
of providing treatment and giving information.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

I would like to say that Survivorship is an excellent resource - a lot of
people I work with have found it, and I have found it to be a really
excellent resource. I am wondering Caryn if you could provide information
on how to contact you because Survivorship is one of the best sources of
information available today.

CARYN STARDANCER:

We have an address in San Francisco:  3181 Mission St. #139, San Francisco,
California, 94110. We also have e-mail  svship@bigfoot.com and we have a
website  www.ctsserver.com/~svship

WAYNE MORRIS:

Can you describe what kind of issues you deal with, and what Survivorship
typically deals with in an issue.

CARYN STARDANCER:

Our focus is the use of belief systems and abuse together - members are
everyone from those who have experienced ritualistic torture, political
torture, religious torture, mind control, government mind control.
Basically it's across the board because our focus is to help people get out
of a traumatic conditioned response lifestyle.
The way we address it - it's a non-profit organization - we have a real
eclectic kind of approach - we talk about politics, we talk about recovery,
personal experience. We allow people the ability to do their art and their
writing. As well we have sections for teens, Gen-X, family members,
partners, children (survivors and children of survivors). We take a broad
approach - this type of abuse impacts every aspect of a person's humanity.
You have to address every aspect of that person in order to have healing.
And healing is what we are really interested in - freedom to experience
free will, a quality of life they may never have known.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

I think fortunately the litigation in Canada has not gone so berserk as it
has in the States. In terms of litigation Canada tends to be more
conservative and there are fortunately more barriers to litigation.
Although I do think it's on the increase and we tend to be often about 10
years behind the US. I would say the backlash has had a tremendous effect -
an impact on therapists who are treating survivors and it certainly has had
an impact on survivors who are recalling this kind of abuse. As they
uncover what has happened to them, they have a certain kind of resistance
that is protective, to wanting to believe this themselves - so when the
environment is feeding back to them that this doesn't exist, or can't
exist, and there is all the false memory propaganda, as I like to call it -
in the media - I think it has quite a harmful impact on survivors.

On the other hand, one of the things that is happening with survivors is
that when they are able to network, when they are able to get good
information such as the information that is available in Survivorship -
then there's strengthening that occurs against the backlash as well. And I
know a number of very strong survivors speaking out against the false
memory foundation.

CARYN STARDANCER:

The wonderful thing about global communication at this point is now the
door is open and it can't be shut. Throughout history when the door has
been opened before, it has been pretty easy to shut. Essentially you would
have a few people talking, and a few people could be easily silenced, and
they had no way of knowing there were a few people in the next town, and a
few people in another country talking about the same thing. They cannot
silence us at this point. It is not possible.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

I think also there are some legal cases where ritual abuse is involved, and
certainly in Canada there have been some prosecutions where ritual abuse
has been a component of the abuse that has been prosecuted successfully. We
had a big case in Prescott, Ontario where there have been signed
confessions around ritual activity.

CARYN STARDANCER:

I also think it is really fortunate that in Canada you had some press
coverage of some notorious cases - I am thinking of the Mt. Cashel - the
religious abuse in orphanages - and that was well publicized before the
backlash so it isn't that difficult for people to go 'wait a minute, this
really happened.' So when you have people coming along saying it doesn't
happen - it isn't quite as effective.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

I think what has been really useful is when the cases are prosecuted on the
pornography rings - on the criminal activity that people know happen - and
when these kinds of child prostitution rings, child pornography rings -
when they are broken and when there is investigatiion into them and
successful prosecution - that really does help. I think there are more and
more investigations and prosecutions into those kinds of specific
concentrations of criminal activity.

CARYN STARDANCER:

i think one of the things that is pretty instructive though is to see, for
example in the United States I have seen newspapers practically side by
side at times - news reports about cult activity, notoriously during the
Branch Davidian disaster. There was another case with a small church in the
Bay area - torture - and at the same time, in the same paper - there were
false memory articles saying 'this didn't happen, this is all made up, this
never happens.' These things would be side by side and people still
wouldn't see it - and the thing that is interesting to me is that these are
people reading the paper who supposedly didn't even have mind control - the
denial is so pervasive the readers can almost have a split mind about it.
Without having forced dissociative systems.

WAYNE MORRIS:

People listening to this radio series have wondered about themselves, and
looked at their own lives, wondering if there has been any kind of abuse
that occurred during their own childhood. Are there any suggestions you can
give people with those questions in their minds?

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

This is one of those tricky areas the false memory people pounce on if you
talk about these things. There are a lot of indicators that somebody has
had an abusive history. Some of the indicators are panic attacks - and
within those panic attacks they are getting basically flashbacks which may
not be recognized as such of violence or sex and violence, and people in
black robes - basically what they are getting is fragments of memory that
have been dissociated suddenly surfacing. Certainly dissociation indicates
that there has been repeated trauma in somebody's life, so if someone finds
they are spacing out a lot - in other words, there are minutes, maybe hours
or maybe days of time they can't fully account for - with only vague
recollections - this is an indication that there has been some sort of
trauma in that person's life and it's probably a useful thing to get some
therapeutic help from someone who knows about dissociation. Certainly there
are other kinds of indicators - people who I have worked with have found
with have found strange things in their houses or apartments that they
can't account for. It may be something like blood for instance, or someone
left a glove behind, and they don't know where these things came from. This
doesn't mean that ritual abuse took place specifically - but if there are a
number of things that the person can't account for, and is confused about,
it's useful to start with help, I suggest, to try to understand what some
of the explanations might be. There are many many indicators that abuse has
occurred. It's a complex topic and it is part of the reason why it is so
difficult to counter the false memory quick media bites because
dissociation, traumatic memory, all of these things are quite a bit more
complex, and can't really be understood with a quick five second or even
five minute explanation.

WAYNE MORRIS:

This is Mr. Grant on the line. Do you have a question or a comment for a
panel.

CALLER:

This is from a book I bought in 1989 and read right through in 1990. I will
just read the blurb on the back, and I think you will get the picture. It's
by Louis Zamoski. It's called, "Behind the Facade of the Masonic Temple:
Masonry and financial capital, Masonry and the war machine, Masonry and
profit - when you lay bare such links, you also expose yourself to the risk
that your opponents will charge you
with simplification, but what will the reader say when he hears that the
basic law of the Masons central project is merely the law of profit, and
also the establishment of a world economic government. Who said so? A
Marxist, an anti-Masonic scribbler? Far from it. Those words came from
Licio Gelli, friend and supporter and a member of the P-2 Lodge, writer
Pierre Capri. Pierre Capri explains that the point concerns placing society
under control of particular corporations which identify themselves with an
economic power. At the same time, directly or indirectly, they are also
identified with political powers."  This was published by Progress
Publishers in 1989 in Moscow. If you remember that was the year of the
so-called collapse of Communism. That's all I have to say. I agree with all
of this I have just read.

WAYNE MORRIS:

Great. Thank you for your comments Mr. Grant. I think you have raised an
important point here. We have been hearing allegations against the Masonic
Lodge, generally high-ranking members. Their historical positions in
society have been quite formidable. We are going to go to another caller now.

CALLER:

It's more of a question. I have a close friend who is involved in the Emin
Society. Is anyone knowledgeable of that?

WAYNE MORRIS:

I'm not.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

What can you tell us about it?

CALLER:

It's a group in London, England that is operating here in Toronto and the
members donate $160 per month for the ability to go and hear dissertations
on how the establishment is not really a source of truth, or the true
establishment. I am really just calling to get an authoritative view on
that if you are knowledgeable about it. Perhaps my question is misguided.

WAYNE MORRIS:

We can't help. I don't know if Caryn has heard of that group -
(Emin Society. (Caryn hadn't heard of it either.)

One other thing I wanted to touch on is what is the importance of spiritual
healing to somebody who had undergone ritual abuse, and really have been
spiritually abused.

CARYN STARDANCER:

My feeling is that all abuse impacts spiritually. The vast majority of
survivors that I have talked with and know, feel that spiritual healing is
one of the most important parts; however there are some survivors who feel
they really don't want to deal with this at all,
having had this type of abuse. But statistically most people feel that it
is one of the most important parts of their healing although it may be one
of the later stages. It really depends on the person.

GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR:

I would agree with that. It can be very frightening to deal with the
spiritual abuse and I think that spirituality has to be interpreted in a
very broad sense. A lot of survivors of ritual abuse have been abused in an
organized religious context and are very afraid to get involved in that
aspect of spirituality. Although there are many other ways they find
spiritual healing possible - often outside of the context of organized
religion, and are interpreting spirituality in a very broad and open sense.

WAYNE MORRIS:

I believe Alex is on the line.

ALEX:

i kind of wanted to go back to the caller who made the reference to
Masonry. There is something I would like to clarify about that whole
position. I think it is important to point out that Masonry as it is
popularly understood here in North America and throughout most of Europe is
not the Masonry that the previous gentleman was referring to. He was
referring to a particular like Black Lodge type of Masonry called the P-2
in Italy and I understand that there is somewhat of a sinister Lodge in
France. But the Masonry that is basically stretched throughout the rest of
the world - Grand Lodge or Blue Lodge Masonry - has really nothing to do
with mind control or cult activity or anything of that sort. So I think it
is good to get that out there because a lot of people might get that
confused and think that well maybe their Uncle or their Grandfather or even
perhaps their Father was engaged in some sort of mind control practice
which is complete and utter rubbish.

WAYNE MORRIS:

The reference to the P-2 Lodge, Propaganda Due Lodge in Italy is an illegal
branch of the Masonic Lodge.

ALEX:

Hold on. This is the point I am trying to bring up though. Masonry as it is
constituted in North America and throughout most of the world falls under
the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge which is in England in the U.K. Now the
Lodges in France and the Lodges in Italy have basically been blackballed by
the Grand Lodge in England because of its nefarious activities. They are
formal and separate organizations. It might be perhaps back in the 1750's
that at one time they were all together under one roof, but for about the
past 200 hundred years they have been separate organizations. And Masonry,
like for instance the Masonic Temple down there on Yonge Street, you know
the one I mean - that sort of Masonry has nothing to do with the type of
Masonry that gets involved in all these political industries.

WAYNE MORRIS:

I am afraid I would have to disagree with you in the respect that we have
heard allegations from across North America alleging that they have been
abused in a ritual abuse context or sexually abused by high ranking Masons
of the same Scottish Rite and the York Rite of the mainstream Masonry. Now
that is not to say that all Masons are engaged in this type of activity -
in fact I would think that the majority are not, and have no knowledge of
it. But we have heard allegation after allegation of high ranking Masons in
these organizations who are engaged in this type of activity.

Thank you very much for your comments caller. I am afraid we are going to
have wrap it up. We are actually over time in our panel discussion. I would
like to thank both Caryn Stardancer and Gail Fisher-Taylor very much for
participating in our panel discussion.

